NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK

[ChicagoRy]

Yea, a minraise is great. Fold out all hands we can thin value bet against later in the hand, or enough of them to make it -EV to thin value bet later in the hand and build the pot with a weaker hand.

Have fun playing the hand when he flat calls or reads the minraise as weak and shoves a T or something.

This is one of those spots that you get confused and think "if I were facing a minraise I'd fold everything except Ax + so I'll do that to him."

People don't think like you.

[abcjnich]

Don't raise so much preflop. There's a reason it's correct to raise more pf when deeper stacked- shorter stacked you want to give yourself room to maneuver.

Min raising to lose the minimum and to get value from worse hands is a terrible way to think in this hand because villian is not a robot and will not play his hand faceup.

Everyone seems to assume that if villian has an A he will auto check the turn and auto lead the river if we min raise. This is false. And don't assume that if villian has a T he will call our min bet and then check it down.

Also, if we min raise and he pushes we are getting good odds to call. And since there's no reason for him to take this line (leading) with an A I would be inclined to call a push.

[jay_shark]

His raise pre-flop is fine considering that he's been very aggressive so he should get some loose calls from villain .

There is nothing wrong with raising 3x the BB if you expect to be called with worse hands .

[phatjeffrey]

What i understand so far :

Preflop is fine. ( only objection is by abcjnich)

Raising on the flop is bad. We fold out hands that we have beat and get called/raised by better hands only.

Calling the flop ( knowing that villain will double barrell since OP stated so) and folding the turn is also bad.

Folding the flop is weak since we still might be ahead of his donk betting range.

Can anyone come up with a decent line ?

[jay_shark]

Phatjeffrey , I think the raise pre-flop is fine .

I like calling the flop but I wouldn't fold on the turn . If you would fold on the turn so easily , then you're better off raising otf .

The idea behind calling is that you wish a player with middle pair , or a pure bluff to continue betting out .

So I like the idea of calling on the turn with the possibility of a river fold if he makes a substantial bet .
If he was bluffing or has middle pair , then you should expect him to check it on the river .

[ChicagoRy]

Call flop/raise turn or call flop, call turn, call/checkbet/check river. Otherwise fold flop.

That's a lot of things to consider, but without more information I wouldn't really advocate a particular line as this is not a very common villain/situation (in my experience).

I like the call, raise turn line a lot if he's really leading OOP with a ton of hands and will call committed on the turn because I would play some Ax hands the same way.

[phatjeffrey]

I also mentioned floating flop and raising all in on the turn before... i think it might be a good way to play the hand.

OP, would it be a problem for u if u uploaded the whole HH of the sng?

Id like to watch it on a replayer and see if i can get any information on villain.

[eof]

the problem with just calling against a T is that when he bets again like OP says he will do, we have to fold the best hand. this is a much bigger mistake in a pot that is now large than losing a little extra when we are behind

[52_4]

Thank you all very much for the responses so far.

I agree that raising flop is bad for the aforementioned reasons. Also, I think villain is capable of bluff raising a min-raise here.

I think if I call flop I also should call on the turn. I'm still pretty convinced villain bets any ace and bluff on the turn, but he will probably check the river. If he has a ten or four he will check turn and river, allowing a value bet. I originally didn't think villain had a ten/four, so that's why I stated in the OP that he second barrels almost always.

However, some of you think he might have a ten. This means if villain has a ten/bluff often enough, I should call flop and turn and otherwise fold flop, right? What do you guys think is his distribution of aces/tens/bluffs?

[52_4]

[ QUOTE ]
I also mentioned floating flop and raising all in on the turn before... i think it might be a good way to play the hand.

OP, would it be a problem for u if u uploaded the whole HH of the sng?

Id like to watch it on a replayer and see if i can get any information on villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like raising the turn, since I don't think villain calls with a T. BTW: villain has not donkbet into me before.

What's a good place to upload the HH?