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  #1  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:20 PM
soulvamp soulvamp is offline
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Default Florida rooms don\'t allow dealers to muck showdown hands

The Isle in Pompano and the Hard Rock Hollywood, possibly one or two other rooms, have recently set a policy in which the dealer is not allowed to muck hands at showdown. As he's reading hands, the dealer must turn losing hands face down in front of the player but cannot gather in cards until after the pot is awarded.

This led to an interesting situation I was involved in the other day in a 2-4 Omaha/8 game. I was dealt Ah 2h xx in middle position, and flopped a flush with two babies and a face card. Guy to my immediate right bet, I raised and, typically, about five people called. Turn was another baby, checked to me, I bet out, everyone called. River paired the board, there was a bet and a raise before it got to me, and I knew one or both caught the full house. But I made a crying call, so focused on having my flopped flush cracked that I completely zoned out on the fact that I had the nut low for a split. At showdown, two people show full house, I fold my hand face down in front of me as two or three others table their hands.

Guy behind me says, "I have 24 for low," and it suddenly dawned on me that I had the A2. So I reach out and turn my cards face up. Dealer awards me half the pot, and 24 guy loses it. Dealer said simply, "Cards speak." Floor was called, floor agreed with the dealer.

I can't blame the guy for being pissed, as I did obviously fold my hand. But because of the house policy of not mucking losing hands at showdown, I was able to correct my own dumbass mistake.

Please discuss.
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  #2  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:56 PM
pfapfap pfapfap is offline
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Default Re: Florida rooms don\'t allow dealers to muck showdown hands

The live player/dealer in me likes to see folded hands killed immediately.

However, the online player and fair and balanced person in me doesn't mind if all hands at showdown retain all claims to the pot. I can't get too upset over a rule that results in the best hand winning.
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  #3  
Old 12-01-2007, 04:07 PM
ATrebek ATrebek is offline
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Default Re: Florida rooms don\'t allow dealers to muck showdown hands

[ QUOTE ]
The live player/dealer in me likes to see folded hands killed immediately.

However, the online player and fair and balanced person in me doesn't mind if all hands at showdown retain all claims to the pot. I can't get too upset over a rule that results in the best hand winning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I agree with most of what you post, but not this time.

[ QUOTE ]
I did obviously fold my hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand was folded voluntarily - no angleshooting, etc, caused it. It's dead - or should be anyway.
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  #4  
Old 12-01-2007, 07:46 PM
Small Fry Small Fry is offline
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Default Re: Florida rooms don\'t allow dealers to muck showdown hands

[ QUOTE ]
The Isle in Pompano and the Hard Rock Hollywood, possibly one or two other rooms, have recently set a policy in which the dealer is not allowed to muck hands at showdown. As he's reading hands, the dealer must turn losing hands face down in front of the player but cannot gather in cards until after the pot is awarded.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure I'll be in the minority here but to me this constitutes a folded / mucked hand. So if you table your hand and the dealer consequently turns it face down, it is now folded / mucked. Or if you do not table your hand it is folded / mucked. These cardrooms have redefined the traditional "muck pile". Just my .02

But if they've ruled that a player can turn his cards back over at any point, reincarnating his hand so to speak, as you were allowed to do, then they've just created a big mess for themselves.

You failed to read your hand properly and chose to fold, rather than table it allowing the cards to speak. Thanks to a bad rule you were able to bring your hand back to life and claim part of the pot. I disagree with it but if thats their rule, good for you.

Pfap - as for online vs. live. Imo, a live player at showdown has just as much protection as an online player. All he needs to do is turn his hand face up. It's hard to fold the winning hand if you don't fold.... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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  #5  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:00 PM
MicroBob MicroBob is offline
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Default Re: Florida rooms don\'t allow dealers to muck showdown hands

small fry - I happen to agree with you that this should be considered a muck.
He wouldn't be allowed to dive into the muck to grab his cards back once hge realizes he has the low and he shouldn't be allwoed to here.
If they allow it here then you can always look like your folding your cards when you really aren't which can end up with some really crappy angles such as making your opponent showing his cards when you have a monster.
Just fold your monster, opponent shows when he wouldn't have otherwise, then declare "Oh yeah...I have the nut-flush. Ha ha."


FWIW - this is thankfully not a universal rule in all Florida poker rooms. They don't do this in Ebro near Panama City. And soon I will be checking out whatever rooms might be nearest us in southwest Florida and will see if they do it there or not.
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  #6  
Old 12-01-2007, 11:04 PM
AngusThermopyle AngusThermopyle is offline
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Default Re: Florida rooms don\'t allow dealers to muck showdown hands

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Isle in Pompano and the Hard Rock Hollywood, possibly one or two other rooms, have recently set a policy in which the dealer is not allowed to muck hands at showdown. As he's reading hands, the dealer must turn losing hands face down in front of the player but cannot gather in cards until after the pot is awarded.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure I'll be in the minority here but to me this constitutes a folded / mucked hand. So if you table your hand and the dealer consequently turns it face down, it is now folded / mucked.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.
Wrong.
And, wrong.

3 players table their hands. Dealer thinks Player A wins.

"Standard practice":
Dealer reaches over, grabs Player B's cards, and jams them into the muck.
Dealer reaches over, grabs Player C's cards, and jams them into the muck.
Dealer starts to shove pot to Player A.

Player B and Player C claim they had winners.
Want to sort out the mess?

"No muck showdown":
Dealer reaches over, turns Player B's cards face down.
Dealer reaches over, turns Player C's cards face down.
Dealer starts to shove pot to Player A.
Player B and Player C claim they had winners.
Easy to sort out. Just turn the hands over and verify the winner.

And please don't say the players should "protect their hand". With a lot of newer players and speed-happy dealers, it is easy for the dealer to grab the tabled hands and muck them before anybody can say something.

As far as not allowing a player to muck his own hand without tabling it, I think that might be a misinterpretation of the procedure.
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  #7  
Old 12-01-2007, 11:29 PM
ATrebek ATrebek is offline
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Default Re: Florida rooms don\'t allow dealers to muck showdown hands

[ QUOTE ]

Want to sort out the mess?


[/ QUOTE ]
Did they table their hands? Did anyone see them? If so, best hand wins. If not, floor makes ruling.

[ QUOTE ]

And please don't say the players should "protect their hand". With a lot of newer players and speed-happy dealers, it is easy for the dealer to grab the tabled hands and muck them before anybody can say something.

[/ QUOTE ]

School of hard knocks. This has happened to nearly everyone who has played any amount of live cards. I am no exception. It will never happen to me again though - I can guarantee that.

I'll take the current common showdown rules over a new angle-shooter's paradise.
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  #8  
Old 12-02-2007, 04:21 AM
parisron parisron is offline
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Default Re: Florida rooms don\'t allow dealers to muck showdown hands

Soulvamp, I knew you must be an Omaha player. That explains alot.
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