200NL: KK flop decision

[CalledDownLight]

Just shove. I like $100 straight preflop.

[RapidLearner]

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1/2 NL live, 10-handed, at St. Louis Harrah's.

3 Villains in this hand are all loose old guys who play marginal hands, and take them too far. The one who raises on the flop is very aggro, raising a bunch of pots and playing junk for a lot of money. The others are very passive.

My image is TAG, and I've shown-down only good hands.

My stack is $550. The 2 loose/passives have about $150 each. The 1 loose/aggro has me covered.

Hero has KK in BB.
Preflop: Loose/passive #1 is UTG and raises to $15, gets 3 callers, including loose/aggro in MP, and loose/passive #2 to my right, Hero raises to $75 (I meant to make a psb raise, but I miscalculated the pot), the 3 Villains call.

Flop (4 players) ($320 pot): Q93 rainbow
Loose/passive #1 bets $10, loose/aggro raises to $60, loose/passive #2 calls, Hero ???

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$120 to go pre-flop with the intention of getting it all-in on any flop without an Ace (unless the 1st loose passive reraises you all-in, then consider folding). I'd be happy if everybody folded and you pickup $63 without a fight.

As played, $75 is close enough, but makes the shove more uncomfortable for me (i.e. not automatic). As played, get it all-in. Cry and reload if you see a set, be happy if you see AQ, pray if you see Q9, stand up + pelvic thrust if you see KQ or worse, and look confused + amused if you see AA.

As an aside, when I'm considering stuff like this live, just figure out what the pot is (4*15=$60 is close enough) and double it rather than figuring out what a pot-sized raise would be. Folks will call you much looser than online.

[CLB]

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If loose/aggro had shoved on the flop, would you call?

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Yeah, I definitely would. I'm not folding an overpair for whats essentially a pot sized bet on anything short of a 789 monotone flop. And even then I probably whine like a bitch and then call.

I really don't see how you can get away from your hand with the pot being what it is on the flop. If you want to leave yourself a chance to get away from the hand (and I am NOT advocating this) you should just call preflop or minraise. Any larger than min reraise that gets called by 3 other players (although I don't know that you could have reasonably expected three callers) leaves you committed in my opinion (on an A free flop that is).

[Stonewalled]

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If loose/aggro had shoved on the flop, would you call?

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Yeah, I definitely would. I'm not folding an overpair for whats essentially a pot sized bet on anything short of a 789 monotone flop. And even then I probably whine like a bitch and then call.

I really don't see how you can get away from your hand with the pot being what it is on the flop. If you want to leave yourself a chance to get away from the hand (and I am NOT advocating this) you should just call preflop or minraise. Any larger than min reraise that gets called by 3 other players (although I don't know that you could have reasonably expected three callers) leaves you committed in my opinion (on an A free flop that is).

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I agree with all this.

The only reason I posted this is b/c I wondered afterwards whether I should have tried to build a side pot with the loose/aggro other than by pushing. I had position on him, he had shown a propensity to try to steal, and the other 2 guys were virtually all-in. So, I was thinking perhaps I should have cold-called, and allowed him to bluff the turn, or alternatively whether I should have mini-raised him.

I chose to push b/c the pot was large and I wanted to protect my hand -- I wanted as few people with me as possible to lessen the chances of someone drawing out.

[CLB]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I posted this is b/c I wondered afterwards whether I should have tried to build a side pot with the loose/aggro other than by pushing. I had position on him, he had shown a propensity to try to steal, and the other 2 guys were virtually all-in. So, I was thinking perhaps I should have cold-called, and allowed him to bluff the turn, or alternatively whether I should have mini-raised him.

I chose to push b/c the pot was large and I wanted to protect my hand -- I wanted as few people with me as possible to lessen the chances of someone drawing out.

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Yeah, wanting to get as much as possible out of loose aggro is understandable. If you 3bet small or smooth call you can probably get more action out of him. And, the flop really is pretty safe for you...the only str8 draw out there would be JT meaning that you're holding 2 of the potential scare cards. Anyone else has either outflopped you or has 2-5 outs to make a set, improve to 2 pair, or spike an A.

I don't know...maybe I'm a candyass, but I'm looking at the 200bb pot thinking I'd love to take it down right there on the flop rather than let a couple of donks hang around in the pot and get sucked out on. Could be a leak of mine...not extracting enough for fear of being sucked out on.