Bet folding versus WA/WB

[pureklas]

Has anyone got any general guidelines for when it is best to bet/fold and when it is best to go into WA/WB mode and then either c/c or c/f.

Lately I have been trying the b/f line with difficuly as I hate folding good hands (TPTK, 2 prs, sets, straights). Is the b/f to get maximum value from hands that have good showdown value and may still be ahead? If say the river completes a draw ho much do we bet? I have been aiming for around 2/3s pot.

Two hands for your viewing pleasure. Would you b/f or use wa/wb?

Hand 1: villain is virtually unknown but shaping himself up like a donk 50/1.5 after 30 hands.

Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $570.10
CO: $85.65
Button: $114
Hero: $197
BB: $454.75

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO folds, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $14</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, Button folds.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($32, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $24</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($80, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero??


Hand 2, ignore pf raise situational dependent...villain was playing tight. on the turn I am sure he is on a draw as he raises the Ace on the flop. The river he bets if i check nearly every time.

Blinds: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $338.90
UTG+1: $583.20
CO: $424.70
Button: $84.60
Hero: $542.50
BB: $800

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $12</font>, BB calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($24, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $18</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($60, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $37</font>, BB calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($134, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero???

Thanks

[McBeef]

first one i always bet, and i dont think its a bet/fold situation. im calling a shove

2nd hand check/fold? i wouldnt bet turn though, you 100% sure raises like A3,A6 A7 etc on flop? cos that seems unlikely

[nuggetz87]

you'[re probably wa/wb on most rivers given you're either 100% or 0% by then every time.

i also don't see waht the first hand has to do with wa/wb..it's probably your top pair vs. a drawing hand or something.

hand 1 i would check

hand 2 easy bet...he probably has an ace most of the time

[pureklas]

[ QUOTE ]
first one i always bet, and i dont think its a bet/fold situation. im calling a shove

2nd hand check/fold? i wouldnt bet turn though, you 100% sure raises like A3,A6 A7 etc on flop? cos that seems unlikely

[/ QUOTE ]

So hand 1 you bet/call allin the turn?
hand 2 the only hand villain would consider flat calling with is Axh. I have a pretty decent read on him and although he is playing Tagish he is a well known bad player. That said, nobody is every 100% sure.

[pureklas]

[ QUOTE ]
you'[re probably wa/wb on most rivers given you're either 100% or 0% by then every time.

i also don't see waht the first hand has to do with wa/wb..it's probably your top pair vs. a drawing hand or something.

hand 1 i would check

hand 2 easy bet...he probably has an ace most of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1 you check? Its a very drawys board. Reasons for check if any? Do you call a turn bet? I f so whats the plan for the river?

Hand 2: Do you fold to a 3bet?

[Unknown Soldier]

is the defn of WA/WB stickied? It's used incorrectly so often here

[nuggetz87]

didn't notice hand 1 villain was 50/1...i would bet. vs. anyone else i would check because there if they continue you're probably beat.

hand 2 fold to a raise...i think his range is pretty much aces and flushes

[McBeef]

yeah i bet def, calling the allin is more iffy because youd generally expect them to jsut call you down but i think you have to call cos of the donkishness of those stats... dunno about folding, i rarely do it in spots like this unless i have some kind of read. even if he does have you beat he has a huge stack so he probably wont hit n run so youll get more shots at him

[pureklas]

[ QUOTE ]
is the defn of WA/WB stickied? It's used incorrectly so often here

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't seen it defined anywhere. Must look harder. I'm thinking that because hand 1 is very ddrawy that am not likely to be WA. I think it was the result of that hand that has confused my thinking slightly. Care to define it for us sir?

[McBeef]

example: you raise AA pf, flop is 26Tr you get raised on the flop. youre either way ahead or way behind in that spot because youre greater than a 3:1 dog or fav vs his range

the first hand isnt like that because its very drawy so that means the ahead/behind range is nowhere near as polarized