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#31
10-18-2007, 05:02 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
I modified my post right after it was quoted. I usually do re-raise here, but I like the point about the re-raise basically announcing you have a pair and that not really being worth giving away for one small bet.
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#32
10-18-2007, 05:26 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like the flop 3-bet. As the raiser, your hand is very likely to be a big pair or two big cards like AK. Let him think you have AK. I think a 3-bet gives him too much info for the small gain against a flush draw. I think your opponent will show up with a smaller pocket pair an awful lot in this situation (I'm only talking about the flop. Obviously, once he raises the turn, his hand becomes much more likely to be a flush or an eight). By 3-betting the flop and checking the turn, you let the smaller pair check behind on you. If you only call the flop, the small pair will feel obligated to protect his hand on the turn. Even a flush draw is going to be very tempted to bet the turn to push you off of your "no pair". If you are confident in your read, checkraising after a blank turn is the way to go. [ QUOTE ] My opinion is that the flop was standard, he thinks "I have a flush draw and I am going to raise". It did clear the field and with a flush draw I think that the villian should have just called to get over calls. 1) a bigger flush draw behind is not folding and 2) a 8 is not folding and 3) a FH is raising. But, that was not part of the question. A good line here might have been to 3-bet the flop as I did and check the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] turn intending to check and call the river. This is more passive but 1) I get to the river cheaply and 2) I get to see his hand. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] That is a very good point that I have been pondering since I started this post. I like you explination. A check raise on the turn assuming no [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] might be a better approach for reasons stated.
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#33
10-18-2007, 05:31 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
Then to summarize:
I have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in one of these 6/12 no fold'em 8 to the flop games and I raise EP after 1 limper. I get a caller MP plus about 4 others. The flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] This is a good flop for me unless someone has an 8. Checked to me and I bet, the next player raises and everyone folds to me. I call so not to give away my hand. Turn is Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Line 1: I bet and he raises me, I fold. Line 2: I check, he bets, I raise, he re-raises, I fold. Line 3: I check and call to the river. He shows 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and drags the pot. Comments?
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#34
10-18-2007, 05:32 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Grunch If this player is capable of shenanigans, I call down. I don't ever bet out on the turn, <font color="red">nor do I re-raise the flop.</font> [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] Are you that tight where you do not re-raise the flop? That assumes that you think on this flop you are already beat? If you do not 3-bet the flop then you are giving up to overpairs like T-T and 9-9 who might not 3-bet preflop. Unless, you plan to check and call to the river. [/ QUOTE ] Not advocating giving up. Advocating prudence. Look, I'm fairly tight post-flop, and I catch hell about that all the time here. So feel free to ignore what I say. Normally I'd put villain on a flush draw or the holder of an 8 given the flop raise. Why? Because I think most rational actors would raise under those circumstances, and, unless I know villain to be LAG or a bluffer, I take raises seriously. He was probably trying to buy a free card on the turn. I just don't think for a moment that a r/r on the flop will really accomplish anything. You raised PF. He already knows you like your hand. On the turn, when the club falls, betting out is absolutely spitting into the wind. I just think that sometimes we try so hard to be aggressive for the sake of aggression that we're locked into telling the opponent something... all the while ignoring what our opponent is telling us. I'm just saying that here given the board and the action that I'm slowing down, calling the flop raise, and c/c'ing to the river. My AA looked great PF, looked good until the flop raise, and look not so great after the club turns.
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#35
10-18-2007, 06:07 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Grunch If this player is capable of shenanigans, I call down. I don't ever bet out on the turn, <font color="red">nor do I re-raise the flop.</font> [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] Are you that tight where you do not re-raise the flop? That assumes that you think on this flop you are already beat? If you do not 3-bet the flop then you are giving up to overpairs like T-T and 9-9 who might not 3-bet preflop. Unless, you plan to check and call to the river. [/ QUOTE ] Not advocating giving up. Advocating prudence. Look, I'm fairly tight post-flop, and I catch hell about that all the time here. So feel free to ignore what I say. Normally I'd put villain on a flush draw or the holder of an 8 given the flop raise. Why? Because I think most rational actors would raise under those circumstances, and, unless I know villain to be LAG or a bluffer, I take raises seriously. He was probably trying to buy a free card on the turn. I just don't think for a moment that a r/r on the flop will really accomplish anything. You raised PF. He already knows you like your hand. On the turn, when the club falls, betting out is absolutely spitting into the wind. I just think that sometimes we try so hard to be aggressive for the sake of aggression that we're locked into telling the opponent something... all the while ignoring what our opponent is telling us. I'm just saying that here given the board and the action that I'm slowing down, calling the flop raise, and c/c'ing to the river. My AA looked great PF, looked good until the flop raise, and look not so great after the club turns. [/ QUOTE ] I'm here to learn and I don't want to ignore any good advice. Prudence is a virtue. People tell me (Ed Miller for one) that I am not aggressive enough. I think that he means in other spots. Being aggressive in this spot (3-bet flop and lead the turn) is most likely -EV. Thanks - BTW - what in the heck does <font color="red">Grunch</font> mean?
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#36
10-18-2007, 06:17 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
The count said something very insightful - [ QUOTE ]
I just think that sometimes we try so hard to be aggressive for the sake of aggression that we're locked into telling the opponent something... all the while ignoring what our opponent is telling us. [/ QUOTE ] This is where we are being aggressive or macho and not readind the action correctly - you raise me well I raise you back - take that! Lou Krieger said this in an article about the language of low limit hold'em betting. The player raises saying I can beat you and so forth.
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#37
10-18-2007, 06:32 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
The count said something very insightful -
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just think that sometimes we try so hard to be aggressive for the sake of aggression that we're locked into telling the opponent something... all the while ignoring what our opponent is telling us. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks ducks, you know what they say.. every now and then a blind squirrel finds an acorn, right? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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#38
10-18-2007, 06:54 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
Flop is good, turn I probably play the same way, but after looking at that club, I think the best line is to go into c/c mode. You have 4 outs vs. his flush, and people spike gutters on me all the time, so gl!
c/c mode allows us to maximize $ vs. hands we beat and hands they might raise us with (AQ w/ A of clubs, KK w/ K of clubs, even A5 w/ A of clubs). As you played though, you probably have to c/f river UI since this really looks like a flush.
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#40
10-18-2007, 06:59 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
The count said something very insightful - Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just think that sometimes we try so hard to be aggressive for the sake of aggression that we're locked into telling the opponent something... all the while ignoring what our opponent is telling us. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks ducks, you know what they say.. every now and then a blind squirrel finds an acorn, right? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] You should take the credit [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Because, I learned something today, me thinks.
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