Professional No-Limit Hold 'em Volume 1 Review Thread

[binions]

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Matt I have a question about SPR for you. You are advocating to play suited connectors,gappers you need a SPR of 10 and up. In your chart on page 216 you have that in a 100bb game which most games are, you should fold getting 4 calllers on the button for a 7bb raise because the SPR is 2.7???
So in a regular live 1/2 donkfest with 100bb effective stacks you fold 87sooted to a 14 dollar raise? Please explain as this just seems wrong.

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tighty,

there are circumstances under which it can be profitable to call there. however, it's not as common as most think. 87s doesn't hit the flop well nearly often enough. you must have big steal equity or payoff potential to make it worthwhile even though there are only 7bb in and you've got three opponents. we will explain this in detail and provide the math that backs it up in volume 2.

matt

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This is counterintuitive and took a little thought on my part. But it makes perfect sense.

After all, assume a SPR of 1 and you have a flush draw and he has an overpair. You both will commit to the flop. You might even have a little of the best of it, getting 2:1 on a 35% shot. But he has WAY the best of it, getting 2:1 himself with a 65% shot. Which hand would you rather have?

When the SPR gets small, you want a hand that usually gets there on the flop. Not a drawing hand that usually needs to see 4-5 cards before it knows whether it got there.

[mojed]

Yes it does make perfect sense, and illustrates nicely the difference between playing small pocket pairs and suited conectors as drawing hands; it would be fine to call with a small pocket pair in this example.

[JROK777]

Lets say we are playing NL50 w/100bb effective stacks. 25/20/3 villian raises in the CO to $1.75. Hero in the SB reraises to $6 with AQo(SPR 3.5). Hero has put in 10% of his stack and now is at "commitment threshold." The flop comes Q72 rainbow(pot is 12.5). If hero bets $10.66 or more on the flop he has to go all the way. If he bets 8.50 on the flop, he can fold to a raise. What bet would be better based on this type of villian? I'm guessing that it would be better to commit to a LAG raising on the button. If villian was 15/10/2, would reraising less PF be a better play than a pot sized reraise? If we reraised PF to $5 it would have a SPR of @4.5. A flop bet of 8.5 into a $10 pot would provide more accurate information on villians hand. If it failed it would cost $1 less. And a smaller reraise PF can look awful scary to an opponent. I just read the book cover to cover today and am wondering how to apply it all.

[ryanj247]

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Lets say we are playing NL50 w/100bb effective stacks. 25/20/3 villian raises in the CO to $1.75. Hero in the SB reraises to $6 with AQo(SPR 3.5). Hero has put in 10% of his stack and now is at "commitment threshold." The flop comes Q72 rainbow(pot is 12.5). If hero bets $10.66 or more on the flop he has to go all the way. If he bets 8.50 on the flop, he can fold to a raise. What bet would be better based on this type of villian? I'm guessing that it would be better to commit to a LAG raising on the button. If villian was 15/10/2, would reraising less PF be a better play than a pot sized reraise? If we reraised PF to $5 it would have a SPR of @4.5. A flop bet of 8.5 into a $10 pot would provide more accurate information on villians hand. If it failed it would cost $1 less. And a smaller reraise PF can look awful scary to an opponent. I just read the book cover to cover today and am wondering how to apply it all.

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my thoughts on this situation:

what is your target SPR if you flop top pair vs the villain? the flop you gave in this example is a great flop for your hand. would the villain give much action on that board with anything worse than AQ? if he's decent, probably not. and so your target SPR would be around 2.

when you're considering your action preflop, you would have to raise to ~$10 to produce an SPR of 2. if you raise that much, he won't call with a range that our hand beats. since there's no good way to get to our target SPR, and we're OOP vs. a decent opponent, the best play is to fold.

there's an example on page 275 that is similar.

your logic about it being better to commit to a LAG raising on the button doesn't make sense to me. your decision to commit should be based on whether you will most likely have the best hand if all the $ goes in. true, the LAG on the will often have a weak hand, but if he's decent he still won't go broke unless he has a strong hand.

[Matt Flynn]

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Lets say we are playing NL50 w/100bb effective stacks. 25/20/3 villian raises in the CO to $1.75. Hero in the SB reraises to $6 with AQo(SPR 3.5). Hero has put in 10% of his stack and now is at "commitment threshold." The flop comes Q72 rainbow(pot is 12.5). If hero bets $10.66 or more on the flop he has to go all the way. If he bets 8.50 on the flop, he can fold to a raise. What bet would be better based on this type of villian? I'm guessing that it would be better to commit to a LAG raising on the button. If villian was 15/10/2, would reraising less PF be a better play than a pot sized reraise? If we reraised PF to $5 it would have a SPR of @4.5. A flop bet of 8.5 into a $10 pot would provide more accurate information on villians hand. If it failed it would cost $1 less. And a smaller reraise PF can look awful scary to an opponent. I just read the book cover to cover today and am wondering how to apply it all.

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couple things here:

you would only raise to $6 if your opponent would still call with a wide range.

if you get 10% in preflop and flop top pair, presumably you set it up that way because you want to get all-in. if you don't, you raised too much preflop. an exception would be if opponent checkfolded nearly always when he missed, in which case you profit from raising bigger then c-betting nearly always.

even if you bet $10.66 and get raised you still have the option to lay down. that's a bad situation for you (conceding a third of your stack), so before you make that bet you should decide what you will do if raised and think about how often you will get raised by a weaker hand. if, for example, a raise meant a bigger hand than yours 90% of the time, you bet and happily fold to a raise.

sometimes additional information will change your decision. say, for example, you bet planning to commit and your opponent does something that makes you near-certain you are beat. it might be he makes a speech then hems and haws then raises - whatever. if you feel that new information is reliable enough, you can change your commitment decision. that's why we say you should make a "commitment plan" at the commitment threshold as opposed to a "commitment decision."

SPR allows for flexibility. nothing is set in stone. you set up a good situation preflop when you can, but then you still play poker.

sometimes you cannot hit your target SPR, such as with AQ in a typical 100bb online mid-stakes game. then you assess whether you still want to put a lot of money in preflop. if you'll win a lot even when you miss, put more money in. if you won't win a lot when you miss, shoot for less money in the pot preflop. that may mean limping or minraising. sometimes it means folding, but usually not with AQ.

[m3dude]

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Lets say we are playing NL50 w/100bb effective stacks. 25/20/3 villian raises in the CO to $1.75. Hero in the SB reraises to $6 with AQo(SPR 3.5). Hero has put in 10% of his stack and now is at "commitment threshold." The flop comes Q72 rainbow(pot is 12.5). If hero bets $10.66 or more on the flop he has to go all the way. If he bets 8.50 on the flop, he can fold to a raise. What bet would be better based on this type of villian? I'm guessing that it would be better to commit to a LAG raising on the button. If villian was 15/10/2, would reraising less PF be a better play than a pot sized reraise? If we reraised PF to $5 it would have a SPR of @4.5. A flop bet of 8.5 into a $10 pot would provide more accurate information on villians hand. If it failed it would cost $1 less. And a smaller reraise PF can look awful scary to an opponent. I just read the book cover to cover today and am wondering how to apply it all.

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my thoughts on this situation:

what is your target SPR if you flop top pair vs the villain? the flop you gave in this example is a great flop for your hand. would the villain give much action on that board with anything worse than AQ? if he's decent, probably not. and so your target SPR would be around 2.

when you're considering your action preflop, you would have to raise to ~$10 to produce an SPR of 2. if you raise that much, he won't call with a range that our hand beats. since there's no good way to get to our target SPR, and we're OOP vs. a decent opponent, the best play is to fold.

there's an example on page 275 that is similar.

your logic about it being better to commit to a LAG raising on the button doesn't make sense to me. your decision to commit should be based on whether you will most likely have the best hand if all the $ goes in. true, the LAG on the will often have a weak hand, but if he's decent he still won't go broke unless he has a strong hand.

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fold because u cant get an spr of 2? great advice. if hero holds jj here, what do u suggest?

[ryanj247]

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fold because u cant get an spr of 2? great advice. if hero holds jj here, what do u suggest?

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no thanks dude, hope you've enjoyed trolling this thread, but it's time for you to move on.

[MiJ305]

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Lets say we are playing NL50 w/100bb effective stacks. 25/20/3 villian raises in the CO to $1.75. Hero in the SB reraises to $6 with AQo(SPR 3.5). Hero has put in 10% of his stack and now is at "commitment threshold." The flop comes Q72 rainbow(pot is 12.5). If hero bets $10.66 or more on the flop he has to go all the way. If he bets 8.50 on the flop, he can fold to a raise. What bet would be better based on this type of villian? I'm guessing that it would be better to commit to a LAG raising on the button. If villian was 15/10/2, would reraising less PF be a better play than a pot sized reraise? If we reraised PF to $5 it would have a SPR of @4.5. A flop bet of 8.5 into a $10 pot would provide more accurate information on villians hand. If it failed it would cost $1 less. And a smaller reraise PF can look awful scary to an opponent. I just read the book cover to cover today and am wondering how to apply it all.

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couple things here:

you would only raise to $6 if your opponent would still call with a wide range.

if you get 10% in preflop and flop top pair, presumably you set it up that way because you want to get all-in. if you don't, you raised too much preflop. an exception would be if opponent checkfolded nearly always when he missed, in which case you profit from raising bigger then c-betting nearly always.

even if you bet $10.66 and get raised you still have the option to lay down. that's a bad situation for you (conceding a third of your stack), so before you make that bet you should decide what you will do if raised and think about how often you will get raised by a weaker hand. if, for example, a raise meant a bigger hand than yours 90% of the time, you bet and happily fold to a raise.

sometimes additional information will change your decision. say, for example, you bet planning to commit and your opponent does something that makes you near-certain you are beat. it might be he makes a speech then hems and haws then raises - whatever. if you feel that new information is reliable enough, you can change your commitment decision. that's why we say you should make a "commitment plan" at the commitment threshold as opposed to a "commitment decision."

SPR allows for flexibility. nothing is set in stone. you set up a good situation preflop when you can, but then you still play poker.

sometimes you cannot hit your target SPR, such as with AQ in a typical 100bb online mid-stakes game. then you assess whether you still want to put a lot of money in preflop. if you'll win a lot even when you miss, put more money in. if you won't win a lot when you miss, shoot for less money in the pot preflop. that may mean limping or minraising. sometimes it means folding, but usually not with AQ.

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??? im still confused , so SPR is almost useless in shorthanded 100bb games ..since we're rarely going to hit our target SPR's with TP/ overpair hands ...seems like i wasted my money on this book ...hopefully its not 2 late and i can get a refund...

[mvdgaag]

I can't wait to get PNL delivered, but until then I can just roam the forums and think about the stuff that the book supposedly is about. Pot to stack ratio's and the planning of commitment seem to be a big focuspoint of the book. It seems like the shortstack strategy from Miller now has gotten a bigger brother. The medium stack strategy. Where the same commitment ideas apply, but between flop and turn instead of preflop and flop.

I could be totally wrong, since I don't have the book yet, but because I'm so very excited about this I wanted to post some thoughs anyways, hope you don't mind and please correct me if I'm wrong about anything.

The ideal stack would be around 50BB, since you can bring it in for a standard raise, one pot sized bet on the flop and one pot sized bet on the turn to get it allin. You are actually commited after betting the flop, or are you?

- If you are, doesn't this imply huge problems with cbetting, because when you cbet you promise it all?

- If you aren't this is great for cbetting, because if they call they know they'll be calling your entire stack, but you only risk half your stack? Is this inherent advantage enough to also cbet with air most of the time? Why plan commitment if you decide you are not commited with half your stack in on the turn?

[Shibby]

Just as a B&M store update, I went to Borders today to look for this book. The computer said it was 'Likely in Store', but I couldn't find it anywhere on the shelves. The lady that worked at the information booth said it was delivered yesterday and went to the back to grab it from the shipment.

Looking forward to reading more... I got through about 50 pages this afternoon. Can't wait for the rest.