why you should squash the "what does betting accomplish" line in ssnl

[snowbank]

Way too many ssnlers throw this around for no reason and use it as their reasoning for why they should check, check, check, check all day long with their hands. Their reasoning being that anything that they beat folds, so "what's the point of betting." YOU HAVE THE BEST HAND!!! Put your money in while you're ahead.

Yes, there are situations where betting is not the best play, because worse hands can't call, but they can bluff you. You need to realize where these spots are though. Many people are using this incorrectly in ssnl imo. Instead of betting and winning the pot with a strong hand, they are checking and often getting behind, and then calling when you are behind and playing the rest of the hand behind, and having no idea where you are at since you didn't bet the flop when you had control of the hand. Instead of forcing your opponent to call when behind, you make it VERY easy to play against YOU.

Instead of making it hard for your opponents to play you, you are making it easy for them, and making it hard for youself to play your hand. You check a hand because you think "if I bet they fold", and then when turn/river comes and they play back at you, since you "trapped" them, your often trapping yourself since you have no idea where you are at, and your line is often counterproductive if used incorrectly which it seems like it is the majority of the time when used in ssnl.

Again, it's not always wrong to check to induce a bet from a worse hand, but don't just convince youself to check the best hand because of that statement, and not be able to think for yourself why you are actually checking, and what it's going to do to you the rest of the hand.

I don't know if I did a great job of explaining my point because it's real late. I won't get crazy in depth, I'll let some other people chime in. Don't make yourself easy to play against. You are losing huge value often(short-term, but mostly long-term) using this line that many people sell off as the way to play because they don't know what benefits another way of playing brings.

[Freelancer]

Often people assume that villains know's how to abuse each 'leak' in your tendency's. Most villains you play don't even know what tendency's/balancing means, let alone that they can abuse it when you only have air/draws or monster in a certain spot.

Goes pretty much hand in hand with OP, and I agree completely. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[schundler]

Yeah, this is a good point. The concept is much more relevant in hsnl where the opponents are more aware and more aggressive.

[snowbank]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this is a good point. The concept is much more relevant in hsnl where the opponents are more aware and more aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

not so much what I meant. By ssnl I meant the ssnl forums. People are using this reasoning for lines way to often, and incorrectly. I see a lot of posts where people say this, and everyone else agrees, without understanding what they are saying, and why they are agreeing. They have heard it before so they quote it and assume they are using it correctly.

[SilentNoise]

yes i agree.

pretty much what
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=2&vc=1
and
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=2&vc=1

explain, in a more clear way with examples.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
yes i agree.

pretty much what
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=2&vc=1
and
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=2&vc=1

explain, in a more clear way with examples.

[/ QUOTE ]
Second thread explains this concept quite good.

[josh_x]

a similar related thing - people often say "he calls all better hands and folds all worse". If this is true, then your opponent has to basically know your exact hand! So whenever you find yourself thinking this, put yourself in your opponents shoes and try to figure out what you have.

[The White Rabbit]

The primary objective in NLHE is to bet, great concept.

Your ideas are right, but the reasons sketchy.

[ QUOTE ]
and having no idea where you are at since you didn't bet the flop when you had control of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's no inherent advantage to having "the initiative" or "control of the hand" and betting for information is way overrated.

However, betting is so often the best play, especially OOP with more streets to come and reasonably deep stacks behind. A bet in and of itself is often +EV and you almost never have enough information about villain's handrange and strategy on later streets to make checking more +EV. Without a very good read it gets you into lots of unnecessary tough spots way faster than you might realize.

[ QUOTE ]

a similar related thing - people often say "he calls all better hands and folds all worse".

[/ QUOTE ]
While you generally don't want to turn your hand into a bluff, people so often overlook the value of preventing to get outplayed on later streets. Especially OOP w/ a marginal hand on the turn w/ about 1 PSB left. If he bets and you figure you're ahead of his range, it's often correct to c/r all-in although "no worse hand call or better hand folds" because there are lots of river cards/actions you don't want to see (unless you have a very accurate read, off course). And it prevents you from getting 2nd barreled so much!

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no inherent advantage to having "the initiative" or "control of the hand" and betting for information is way overrated.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not commenting on betting for information, but I'm pretty sure that most of the winning (5ptbb/100+) players use betting impetus to a huge advantage. The "where you are" combined with "controlling the hand" is saying a lot more than just the "where you are".

Overall, I agree tho and hope snowbank expands on his OP.

[The White Rabbit]

What I meant is that it isn't an inherent, game theoretical advantage (like having position is). Off course having a stronger hand range and reducing villain's perceived FE (that's where it comes down to anyway) IS a huge advantage.

In optimal play it are actual hand ranges that matter, in "real-world" play perceived hand ranges do.