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#11
11-04-2006, 06:24 PM
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Re: Too agressive?
[ QUOTE ]
And even if I did agree with that tactic, BB is unknown so I don't see a reason to assume he's going to raise with overcards when the more common pattern is to raise Jx or better and call most worse hands. [/ QUOTE ] Then why do you think he's going to bet with overcards, allowing us to check/raise? Or are you assuming that one of the limpers will? You also run into the potential problem of this being such a draw-heavy flop, and your check/raise being interpreted as a draw and then being 3bet or raised on a blank turn by a worse hand. Or someone else raising BB's bet with a draw or weaker J or a weaker pair. Or, or... I totally agree with betting into the PFR on the flop. Once it got heads up I could see either stop & go'ing the turn or 3betting & seeing if it was capped. When he doesn't cap the flop and we improve to the 2nd nut flush draw on the turn, I absolutely bet there. 
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#12
11-04-2006, 06:33 PM
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Re: Too agressive?
[ QUOTE ]
Then why do you think he's going to bet with overcards, allowing us to check/raise? [/ QUOTE ] Betting ranges are almost always wider than calling ranges, especially where a PFR is involved. [ QUOTE ] You also run into the potential problem of this being such a draw-heavy flop, and your check/raise being interpreted as a draw and then being 3bet or raised on a blank turn by a worse hand. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I totally agree with betting into the PFR on the flop. Once it got heads up I could see either stop & go'ing the turn or 3betting & seeing if it was capped. [/ QUOTE ] I don't get it. You're afraid of him giving you excessive action if you checkraise, yet if you donk into him and get raised you're willing to 3bet him? Is your hand good enough to go to war with or isn't it?
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#13
11-04-2006, 06:41 PM
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Re: Too agressive?
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it. You're afraid of him giving you excessive action if you checkraise, yet if you donk into him and get raised you're willing to 3bet him? Is your hand good enough to go to war with or isn't it? [/ QUOTE ] There's a huge difference between having your flop donk get raised by the PFR, and having your check/raise get 3bet. Or being called and popped on a blank turn. The problem is that, here at least, there are so many potential draws that we still end up wanting to pay off a lot. And I think you're also ignoring the implications of having two other players in the hand on the flop.
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#14
11-06-2006, 04:27 AM
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Re: Too agressive?
Does anyone fold this preflop after the BB raises and it gets back to us?
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#15
11-06-2006, 05:08 AM
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Re: Too agressive?
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone fold this preflop after the BB raises and it gets back to us? [/ QUOTE ] If it's for just one more bet, and we're closing the action, I think the odds would be too good to fold this semi-decent off-suit hand. However, I think the decision is very close.
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#16
11-06-2006, 05:53 AM
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Re: Too agressive?
[ QUOTE ]
I would raise that flop bet with overcards all day long, especially if I'm holding a high spade. I drool at the chance to isolate on the only player at the table I have position on here. [/ QUOTE ] I doubt, that the average player is going to raise his AK here, even with the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. So, after the flop raise, it's pretty clear, that we are behind here (against a normal player). When the turn brings the FD for us, check/calling is OK, assuming villain has very often a pocket pair, and seldom AA or AJo with the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I exclude a completed flush, as he is the preflop raiser. On the river, we can fold. I don't see many people trying to bluff us out here with a worse hand. What hand do we have in the eyes of villain, that he should make such an attempt?
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#17
11-06-2006, 03:38 PM
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Re: Too agressive?
This hand is colored by the fact that you have a poster in the CO who checks, and a button who limps behind him. Hero then limps and it's to the BB who has some sort of hand, but he doesnt't need much of a hand to be raising here because of the weakness shown by all involved to this point.
In light of this I would like TP here more than I usually would. In a 4-way raised pot I'm not fooling around with check-raises. I want folds. Lead the flop. 3 bet or stop and go depending on your read of the BB and what you think the flop raise means, and play it from there.
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#18
11-06-2006, 04:09 PM
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Re: Too agressive?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Does anyone fold this preflop after the BB raises and it gets back to us? [/ QUOTE ] If it's for just one more bet, and we're closing the action, I think the odds would be too good to fold this semi-decent off-suit hand. However, I think the decision is very close. [/ QUOTE ] We also have good relative position. I think both calling and folding are fine. With no read, my default is to call. However, with a poster who did not raise when it was folded to him, I am raising this the first time around.
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