Big Pot Heads Up - Dealer Mucks Opponents Cards - Horrible Ruling.

lowpockets · #1 08-14-2006, 09:27 AM

This weekend I played a little 2/5 at Caesars in AC at the insistence of some of my buds I was with. I was not impressed with the room from the get-go. They only had one table of 2/5 and I was definitely wanting to play a bigger game.

The following hand came up. Effective stacks about $650-700. I limped utg with AcAs and with a couple callers the button raised to 25. I of course bumped it to $80 and all fold to the button who calls.

Flop comes all low hearts. I lead for $125. Button calls. Turn comes 7s and I lead for $150. This is where the confusion started. The button has about $450 behind him and starts counting out chips in a bunch of weird ways looking like he is going to raise. He is solid though, and I don't put him on AKh because he would have no need to reraise me here. I figure set and depending on what he does I might get away from my hand. After about a minute he clearly announces "Raise" and puts out $300ish. The action is back on me and and I start to think about wtf this turn min-raise is.

This is where the situation gets f-ed up. About 5-10 seconds after I start to think about the hand the villian says, "HEY WHERE THE FU-CK ARE MY CARDS!?!?" He was in the 1 seat and the dealer (who was extremely pushy and made other mistakes in this rotation) mucked his cards. The villian then gets pissed off very very badly. He reaches out and takes his $300 raise back and then starts racking up his chips. Meanwhile the entire table is yelling "FLOOR!" as we wait for the floor to get there. The final ruling here was that since he didn't have cards he was permitted to take his raise back.

I was very polite and professional when explaining to the floor what happened and explaining to him that his dealer's mistake just cost me an extra $400 from villian. The floor is very confused and doesn't have a clue what he should do. The whole incident took about 10 minutes to get resolved. During that time the enraged villian starts talking about his KxKh hand like its the nuts and convinces the dealer to burn and turn the river - "JUST TO SEE!" The dealer, who we have established to be a moron, obliges and no heart comes. Its doubtfull that after having so much of his stack in the pot that he wouldn't have put his remaining $150 into the pot on the river.

Did the floor make the correct ruling? Also, should the floor have done anything for me for costing me an extra $400 based on a dealer error?

I informed the floor that this move reflected poorly on their card room and told him for the delay he cost the table that I thought it was appropriate that they at least not take time from the entire table the next round. He disagreed and didn't do anything about it - even though he fully admitted it was the dealers faul.

psandman · #2 08-14-2006, 09:48 AM

Its a typical ruling to allow a player to take back a raise that has not been acted on when it is discovered that his cards have been accidently mucked.

I do take exception to you referring to this as a dealer error. While the dealer did make a mistake, when a player (especially in the 1 or 10 seat) does not protect their cards and they are mucked it is not a "dealer error" it as a Dealer/Player Error.

AngusThermopyle · #3 08-14-2006, 10:47 AM

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I do take exception to you referring to this as a dealer error. While the dealer did make a mistake, when a player (especially in the 1 or 10 seat) does not protect their cards and they are mucked it is not a "dealer error" it as a Dealer/Player Error.

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What part of "There is a big pot going on. Seat 1 just announced raise and put in chips. Even if Seat 1's hand is not 'protected', he is not folding." didn't the dealer understand? We both know he either had "issues" with Seat 1 or was totally oblivious to the action that it is his job to follow and control.

You act like it is 50-50. Dealer here is at least 90% responsible.

lowpockets · #4 08-14-2006, 11:14 AM

I agree Angus - since he is seat 1 and so close to the dealer and I mentioned he was counting his chips - the dealer should have been paying attention. Also, it is clear that the action on this hand was TWO WAY to the flop. That means that the dealer mucked these cards after the turn, two streets later when betting had clearly been taking place between me and the villian I was with.

Also, sandman, I agree that the other player should have gotten his money back. I was full well intending to give his $300 back that he was putting in on the turn. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that if it wouldn't have been for the over-eager dealer I would be $400 richer.

Do you guys think the floor should have at least covered the time for my table the next round? I didn't really give a [censored] about a free meal or a free time for me, but this held up the table for so long and reflected really poorly on the dealer and the card room. Regardless of whether a player is solely responsible for protecting their own cards - the house probably should have given a comp to someone here.

RR · #5 08-14-2006, 02:11 PM

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Also, it is clear that the action on this hand was TWO WAY to the flop. That means that the dealer mucked these cards after the turn, two streets later when betting had clearly been taking place between me and the villian I was with.

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It is not clear at all that this is when the player lost his cards. They were unprotected so they might have been mucked preflop. Just because he noticed on the turn that he had no cards does not mean he lost his cards on the turn. He might have left them out and had another hand thrown into them at some point leaving the dealer completly blameless.

lowpockets · #6 08-14-2006, 08:47 PM

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Also, it is clear that the action on this hand was TWO WAY to the flop. That means that the dealer mucked these cards after the turn, two streets later when betting had clearly been taking place between me and the villian I was with.

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It is not clear at all that this is when the player lost his cards. They were unprotected so they might have been mucked preflop. Just because he noticed on the turn that he had no cards does not mean he lost his cards on the turn. He might have left them out and had another hand thrown into them at some point leaving the dealer completly blameless.

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Na, I know he didn't lose them until then. I remember he set them to his right before he played with all of his chips. I am about 95% sure he had them after the turn card was dealt. This also wasn't the dealers first or second mistake of the round (it was his last hand of the round).

octop · #7 08-15-2006, 04:59 AM

They atleast shouldnt have charged time for the next round
They wasted a lot of it for the players.

psandman · #8 08-14-2006, 10:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
However, that doesn't take away from the fact that if it wouldn't have been for the over-eager dealer I would be $400 richer.

Do you guys think the floor should have at least covered the time for my table the next round? I didn't really give a [censored] about a free meal or a free time for me, but this held up the table for so long and reflected really poorly on the dealer and the card room. Regardless of whether a player is solely responsible for protecting their own cards - the house probably should have given a comp to someone here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually You know say you would have made $400. But in your original post you say that you put this player on a set and you were prepared to to let it go. I know you hadn't made up your mind yet, but since you were at least consdiring the fold, maybe you should considre that this error may have actually made you money.

Rick Nebiolo · #9 08-14-2006, 12:03 PM

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[ QUOTE ]

I do take exception to you referring to this as a dealer error. While the dealer did make a mistake, when a player (especially in the 1 or 10 seat) does not protect their cards and they are mucked it is not a "dealer error" it as a Dealer/Player Error.

[/ QUOTE ]

What part of "There is a big pot going on. Seat 1 just announced raise and put in chips. Even if Seat 1's hand is not 'protected', he is not folding." didn't the dealer understand? We both know he either had "issues" with Seat 1 or was totally oblivious to the action that it is his job to follow and control.

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You act like it is 50-50. Dealer here is at least 90% responsible.

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Dealer is at least 90% responsible but if you play in the seats next to the dealer (especially the one seat) and don't make an extra effort to protect your cards with a card protector or chip expect this to happen quite often in your poker career. Just ask my gf [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

~ Rick

LasVegasMichael · #10 08-14-2006, 12:34 PM

If the player does not protect his cards in the 1/10 seat with a card protector or chip, it is his own fault that his cards were mucked, but the dealer could have been a little more careful under the HU circumstance.

As it was, in my opinion, player error moreso then dealers, I think that the committed chips should remain. However, I understand the floors standpoint, as a customer service issue, it is better that both players get some money, you the pot, and the villian the raise bet. Though I do not agree as a player, I understand why the floor would make that decision.