RYANCMU teaches struggling NL50 and NL100 players

[Specialwon]

Hi Ryan, great thread and thanks for taking the time.

Just a question following on from the AQo discussion earlier. I was pretty surprised you 3bet this so often, I usually do the opposite and 3bet about 15% of the time, fold the rest. Here's why, maybe you can tell me where I'¨m going wrong.

You're assigning a hand range of ATo+, 98s+,22+. I assume you're also including at least A9s+ for the complete range, tho maybe not KJs.

That's about a 13% pfr range, against which AQo is a very slight favourite, around 50.5%. So, I can see why it makes sense to 3bet that range with these cards. But I just wonder whether you're being a bit optimistic with your ranging.

I've been doing some work on my own 3 bet range recently. I play Ongame 50NL, which is 10 handed.

The average stats for all players over about 60k hands is about 18/7. Average for regulars with 500 hands or more is about 15/7. It's very unusual to see a pfr of more than 10, in fact I am one of the most aggressive with an average PFR of just under 11.

Adjusting for position, my pfr never really goes over 10 earlier than CO and I am unusually aggressive. I would say the typical range is probably about 8% at most, which is more like 88+, AJs+, QJs+, KQo+. Against that range, AQo is a 48% dog.

So, my 3bet range here is really just AA-QQ, AKo, AQs+.

Are we comparing apples and pears, am I being too conservative, what do you think?

[RyanCMU]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Ryan, great thread and thanks for taking the time.

Just a question following on from the AQo discussion earlier. I was pretty surprised you 3bet this so often, I usually do the opposite and 3bet about 15% of the time, fold the rest. Here's why, maybe you can tell me where I'¨m going wrong.

You're assigning a hand range of ATo+, 98s+,22+. I assume you're also including at least A9s+ for the complete range, tho maybe not KJs.

That's about a 13% pfr range, against which AQo is a very slight favourite, around 50.5%. So, I can see why it makes sense to 3bet that range with these cards. But I just wonder whether you're being a bit optimistic with your ranging.

I've been doing some work on my own 3 bet range recently. I play Ongame 50NL, which is 10 handed.

The average stats for all players over about 60k hands is about 18/7. Average for regulars with 500 hands or more is about 15/7. It's very unusual to see a pfr of more than 10, in fact I am one of the most aggressive with an average PFR of just under 11.

Adjusting for position, my pfr never really goes over 10 earlier than CO and I am unusually aggressive. I would say the typical range is probably about 8% at most, which is more like 88+, AJs+, QJs+, KQo+. Against that range, AQo is a 48% dog.

So, my 3bet range here is really just AA-QQ, AKo, AQs+.

Are we comparing apples and pears, am I being too conservative, what do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to think about it this way...

If they are opening lets just hypothetically for arguments sake 10%, yet, are only calling my 3bet w/ 4.5% of their range. We have shown a profit the times they have folded that 5.5% that is in their opening and then folding range.

Ok, but, wait, the hands they are calling w/ have my AQo crushed from an equity standpoint? Yes, this is true. However, lets now move onto the flop.

Think about how often post flop they will be folding to a c bet from us? It's very hard for them to play their limited range post flop vs us, they basically have to make a strong hand to continue or have their premium/upper end pair still be feeling comfortable. How many times are they forced to fold AKhi to our cbets, what about JJ on a Khi board? See what I'm getting at?

And now back to ranges, if we have a wide 3betting range, and they have a narrow 3bet calling range. It's going to be very hard for them to know where they stand post flop vs us.

If they do have a hand and they play back at us, it's easy for us to know where we stand vs their range, since so many regulars and TAGs play so honestly post flop.

Notice how our hand strength has not even been relevant yet? 3betting and aggression is about more then just how your range stacks up vs theirs.

[Ctrl.Dominate]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to think about it this way...

If they are opening lets just hypothetically for arguments sake 10%, yet, are only calling my 3bet w/ 4.5% of their range. We have shown a profit the times they have folded that 5.5% that is in their opening and then folding range.

Ok, but, wait, the hands they are calling w/ have my AQo crushed from an equity standpoint? Yes, this is true. However, lets now move onto the flop.

Think about how often post flop they will be folding to a c bet from us? It's very hard for them to play their limited range post flop vs us, they basically have to make a strong hand to continue or have their premium/upper end pair still be feeling comfortable. How many times are they forced to fold AKhi to our cbets, what about JJ on a Khi board? See what I'm getting at?

And now back to ranges, if we have a wide 3betting range, and they have a narrow 3bet calling range. It's going to be very hard for them to know where they stand post flop vs us.

If they do have a hand and they play back at us, it's easy for us to know where we stand vs their range, since so many regulars and TAGs play so honestly post flop.

Notice how our hand strength has not even been relevant yet? 3betting and aggression is about more then just how your range stacks up vs theirs.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a very, very good post. I have been finding myself in tough spots post-flop after 3 betting regulars lately. This was very insightful, Thanks.
PS: Coach me plz. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]