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  #1  
Old 10-24-2007, 10:51 PM
TxRedMan TxRedMan is offline
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Default Post your thoughts on playing weak A3\'s and strong A4\'s.

I dont know if this thread will gain any momentum, but I hope it does.

Assume you're playing in a six to nine handed middle limit game between 15-30 and 40-80. If your arguement or point is considerably different for a six handed game as opposed to a nine handed game, give your analysis based on it being a nine handed game.

Post your ideas on how to play weak A3's and strong A4's, and if your ideas differ from how you actually play the hands, make note of it and preferably explain both.

Example: "I muck a hand like A4JJs when UTG opens b/c I figure my A4 is a dog to his likely A2-A3 and my jacks are very unlikely to win the high end even if I get to showdown and it's headsup"


Hopefully more detailed than the above, but I thought that a discussion about weak A3's and strong A4's would be productive for all of us. I think there's a very fine line you walk when playing these types of hands and it's definitely worthy to develop a strategy to playing these hands.


Also, please define what your minimum definition is for "weak A3" and "strong A4", as this is paramount in explaining your thoughts on how to play them, and dont let a particular action change your definition, i.e., AA49 is just as strong for the sake of discussion if it's folded to you on the button as it would be if UTG opened and the CO 3-bet.


Someone get the ball rolling.




-Tex
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  #2  
Old 10-24-2007, 11:16 PM
Big Dave D Big Dave D is offline
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Default Re: Post your thoughts on playing weak A3\'s and strong A4\'s.

Tx, online or live?

As a starting point, taking out CO and button steal/semi-steal situations, there are a lot more weak A3s I would be happy to play than strong A4s. The number of A4s I play would be very small indeed. They would normally need a 5, a suited A or a high pair.

gl

bdd
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  #3  
Old 10-25-2007, 12:30 AM
texnewb texnewb is offline
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Default Re: Post your thoughts on playing weak A3\'s and strong A4\'s.

I know you said a middle-limit, limit game, so ignore my post at will. I only respond as most omaha8 threads tend to die with a few posts and I think the more replies the more chance it will pick up into something substantial like you hope.

In the games I play ($25PL) the value of weak A3 hands comes mainly from implied odds when limping (there is usually no PF raising) and catching a 2 on the flop + a pair/ high draw, or as a minimum-standard for late position aggression against opponents you expect will call a PF raise and fold most flops to a flop sized c-bet.
I've got no experience playing A4 hands [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:54 AM
donger donger is offline
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Default Re: Post your thoughts on playing weak A3\'s and strong A4\'s.

These hands are especially interesting from the SB vs a HJ-BTN open raiser. I'm still kind of winging it here and 3betting if I have A4s or A3 + high card strength, cool calling most other A3s and mucking trashy A4s. I usually just cool call to avoid bloating the pot if BB is loose/bad and is calling a wide range if I 3bet.

How do you play from this position vs an aggressive opponent?
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  #5  
Old 10-25-2007, 02:09 PM
TxRedMan TxRedMan is offline
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Default Re: Post your thoughts on playing weak A3\'s and strong A4\'s.

[ QUOTE ]
Tx, online or live?

As a starting point, taking out CO and button steal/semi-steal situations, there are a lot more weak A3s I would be happy to play than strong A4s. The number of A4s I play would be very small indeed. They would normally need a 5, a suited A or a high pair.

gl

bdd

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking about live games primarily.


To clarify, which hand would you consider stronger; A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
or
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]............?


Dont consider them to be going headsup, i.e., cancelling out the suits, etc, and off the topic a bit, I wonder how many 'stronger' hands are considered weaker by many of us b/c of their relative difficulty to play correctly?
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  #6  
Old 10-25-2007, 02:36 PM
facialabuse facialabuse is offline
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Default Re: Post your thoughts on playing weak A3\'s and strong A4\'s.

2nd hand becomes more preferable the more short-handed u get, but its very close
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  #7  
Old 10-25-2007, 04:13 PM
davebreal davebreal is offline
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Default Re: Post your thoughts on playing weak A3\'s and strong A4\'s.

[ QUOTE ]
These hands are especially interesting from the SB vs a HJ-BTN open raiser. I'm still kind of winging it here and 3betting if I have A4s or A3 + high card strength, cool calling most other A3s and mucking trashy A4s. I usually just cool call to avoid bloating the pot if BB is loose/bad and is calling a wide range if I 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

mucking A4s from the BB against possible steal attempt in an online games sounds extremely tight... do you think most mid-limit players do that? i'm curious.

not bloating the pot OOP seems smart to me. lately i've been colding-calling most AA5s and AA6s from the BB because in my experience most button raisers don't respect a 3-bet and will usually proceed after the flop anyways.
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  #8  
Old 10-25-2007, 04:44 PM
Tilt_Monkey Tilt_Monkey is offline
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Default Re: Post your thoughts on playing weak A3\'s and strong A4\'s.

I only play online and at lower limits than the ones that you mention so my experience may be different than live players.
Weak A3:
If the table has been very aggressive and I am in early position this is a fold. In late position is either a fold or a raise. It depends on my opponents and what kind of hands I think they may have. If I suspect that an early position limper has A2 with some decent redraws, this hand is a fold. Against one or two early limpers that tend to play weak holdings, I will raise with such hand. If I am on the button and it is folded to me, I will raise.
Strong A4:
I would play hands like A4sKK, A4sKQs, A4sQQ and A4sKJs from any position. Sometimes I will just call with such hands and sometimes I will raise. I will also call a raise with such hands. I would like to see what other people think about such hands, because I could be playing too loose. Note that these hands are primarily high hands with a backup low. You can scoop if there is no low and you make the nut high or if someone's low get counterfeited. A lot of times you will win 1/2 of 3 way pot when 2 other players will go for low and you have the nut high.
Weaker hands than the ones above will be treated like a weak A3. For example A4sQ6s that you mention is a borderline hand for me. I will try to steal with it in late position but in early position esspecially against an aggressive table, is always a fold.
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  #9  
Old 10-27-2007, 06:27 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: Post your thoughts on playing weak A3\'s and strong A4\'s.

Hi Tex - First of all, when you write A-3, an inference is the hand has no deuce (else you would have written A-2-3). Similarly, when you write A-4, an inference is the hand has neither a deuce nor trey.

Second, I prefer to think (and write) A-3-X-Y and A-4-X-Y in order to emphasize that there are four cards to consider.

Given the above, I think of both A-3 and A-4 alone as primarily low two-card combinations. In a game where the object is always to scoop, either of these gives you a chance at low (which is good). But then you usually need something else for high. The ace may also fit with another card in either case, but A-3 or A-4 for high, although not impossible (as in a wheel or full house, for example), is not very likely.

How well either combo does for low depends very much on the particular flop. With no deuce on the flop, and nothing else going for the hand, A-3-4-Y or A-3-5-Y are not very good, and without a four or five for back-up, the bare A-3 after a flop with two low cards, but no deuce, is probably not worthwhile playing. It depends on your opponents, of course.

Drawing for second nut low alone is generally poor strategy after the flop. But if there are three low cards but no deuce on the flop, the situation is different. In other words, playing the second nut low, though fraught with peril, is quite a bit better than drawing for it. The main problem with playing the second nut low is approximately half the time in a full game, you're up against the nut low.

A-4 is even tougher to play as a low combination. Not only do you have to contend with A-2, but also with A-3 and 2-3. To play A-4 for low at all after the flop, you almost have to have either a deuce or trey on the flop. And in either case, A-4 assumes the role of A-3 without a deuce on the flop.

There's a lot to playing A-3-X-Y and A-4-X-Y hands, depending on the flop, the turn and river, your table image, and how your opponents play - too much to generalize in one post.

Buzz
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