A hand from SSHE would like discussion

[sparky3474]

A hand from page 96/97 in SSHE, post flop play, "hero (Qh7h) has made two mistakes, the worse one being post flop". The flop is Jc, 7s, 5h and Hero, in MP, is sitting here with 6.5 outs (two 7's, three Q's & bdfd), an overcard, middle pair and a decent kicker. There are 10 sb's in the pot and it is raised to him by the preflop bettor (11 sb's now) and he calls yet Ed says raise. What pushes this to a raise situation, the pot is fairly big, there are straight draws out there, if he puts in 2 bets he will only be getting 5.5 to 1 a little shy of the 6.5 to 1 that we would like? Can we generalize here and say with a middle pair and getting the almost correct pot odds to play we should raise? If your drop back a little and say have 5 outs (8 to 1) (no bdfd) with and without another flush draw out there what do we do?

hand 1, Qh 7h, board Jc 7s 5h, 11sb in pot raised to you in MP
hand 2, Qh 7c, board Jc 7s 5h, 11sb in pot raised to you in MP
hand 3, Qh 7h, board Jc 7s 5s, 11sb in pot raised to you in MP

[Ricks]

The mistake he is referring to is the one of not protecting your hand in a large pot. By raising here you are forcing the field to call 2 cold getting only 6.5:1. If you don't raise you are allowing everyone to stay in getting 12:1. One more small bet can mean the difference between winning and losing this pot. The fewer players, the better your chances of winning here. You do not necessarily need TPTK for your hand to be worth protecting.

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
A hand from page 96/97 in SSHE, post flop play, "hero (Qh7h) has made two mistakes, the worse one being post flop". The flop is Jc, 7s, 5h and Hero, in MP, is sitting here with 6.5 outs (two 7's, three Q's & bdfd), an overcard, middle pair and a decent kicker. There are 10 sb's in the pot and it is raised to him by the preflop bettor (11 sb's now) and he calls yet Ed says raise. What pushes this to a raise situation, the pot is fairly big, there are straight draws out there, if he puts in 2 bets he will only be getting 5.5 to 1 a little shy of the 6.5 to 1 that we would like? Can we generalize here and say with a middle pair and getting the almost correct pot odds to play we should raise? If your drop back a little and say have 5 outs (8 to 1) (no bdfd) with and without another flush draw out there what do we do?

hand 1, Qh 7h, board Jc 7s 5h, 11sb in pot raised to you in MP
hand 2, Qh 7c, board Jc 7s 5h, 11sb in pot raised to you in MP
hand 3, Qh 7h, board Jc 7s 5s, 11sb in pot raised to you in MP

[/ QUOTE ]

its very easy to missapply this concept and become a spewmonkey.

i suggest you post some hands where you have the option of raising middle pair on the flop and allow us to weigh in.

by no means is it 100% correct to raise middle pair if you have pot odds to improve. it often isnt.

[sparky3474]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A hand from page 96/97 in SSHE, post flop play, "hero (Qh7h) has made two mistakes, the worse one being post flop". The flop is Jc, 7s, 5h and Hero, in MP, is sitting here with 6.5 outs (two 7's, three Q's & bdfd), an overcard, middle pair and a decent kicker. There are 10 sb's in the pot and it is raised to him by the preflop bettor (11 sb's now) and he calls yet Ed says raise. What pushes this to a raise situation, the pot is fairly big, there are straight draws out there, if he puts in 2 bets he will only be getting 5.5 to 1 a little shy of the 6.5 to 1 that we would like? Can we generalize here and say with a middle pair and getting the almost correct pot odds to play we should raise? If your drop back a little and say have 5 outs (8 to 1) (no bdfd) with and without another flush draw out there what do we do?

hand 1, Qh 7h, board Jc 7s 5h, 11sb in pot raised to you in MP
hand 2, Qh 7c, board Jc 7s 5h, 11sb in pot raised to you in MP
hand 3, Qh 7h, board Jc 7s 5s, 11sb in pot raised to you in MP

[/ QUOTE ]

its very easy to missapply this concept and become a spewmonkey.

i suggest you post some hands where you have the option of raising middle pair on the flop and allow us to weigh in.

by no means is it 100% correct to raise middle pair if you have pot odds to improve. it often isnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Kit that is exactly what scares me, SSHE said hand 1 from my post was a raise, does it go away at hand 2 when you don't have the flush draw? or hand 3 when some else could have a flush draw? On page 122 under pairs less than top pair he says if no one has shown much strength and your draw is a probable winner, so are we talking a few limpers and a raise in front of you but your draw is very strong?

[sparky3474]

[ QUOTE ]
The mistake he is referring to is the one of not protecting your hand in a large pot. By raising here you are forcing the field to call 2 cold getting only 6.5:1. If you don't raise you are allowing everyone to stay in getting 12:1. One more small bet can mean the difference between winning and losing this pot. The fewer players, the better your chances of winning here. You do not necessarily need TPTK for your hand to be worth protecting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rick, that makes sense, I guess it is nice to be next to the bettor then the field is faced with 2 bets, if you have a few players between you and the bettor, who have called, you won't be able to thin the field with a bet, so what then?

[Bob T.]

This is going to be tough, because it is before noon, and my brain doesn't work that well at this time of day. It took me several readings to figure out what your different scenarios meant.

Anyway, the general principle, is that if you have the odds to call, and you are going to play, and you are in a mulitway pot, with players left to act, THEN it is frequently correct to raise instead of calling, because several good things could happen.

1- better hands could fold. Lets say, someone had played somekind of weak Jack. The preflop bettor had AQ, AK, KQ, or something like that. The preflop bettor makes a continuation bet, and now you raise. The player with Jack, weak kicker decides to fold, and now you have the best hand left in the pot.

2- You raise, and some players call. Now, on the turn, everyone checks to you, and you can take a freecard.

3 - Everyone hates the flop. You raise, and you just take the hand down here. In this case, they probably had the odds to continue against your hand, if they knew what it was, even though you are ahead, you don't mind winning immediately with your hand.

The other dividend that this kind of play might eventually pay off with, lets say that you raise, and make your BDflush, and have to show down. Your opponents might remember this goofy raise, and later on, you flop a monster, and you might get an undue amount of action, because your opponents might have a little too much suspicion/doubt.

[TheCount212]

This makes sense. Essentially w/ a decent hand in MP you're trying to buy the button here.

[mntndrew]

An example: Three limpers, I limp A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO. BN raises, blinds and limpers call.

Flop [13+SB]: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
HJ, who plays way too many hands preflop and bets all kinds of hands postflop leads out.

I think this is a good spot to raise -- the pot is large, and the bet has come from my right from a somewhat aggressive player. Although the BN must either have a hand that has me crushed or that is drawing to 3-6 outs, it's worth it to me to take a chance that HJ is either betting a draw or will give me a free look at the river while possibly knocking out some small to medium pairs, overcards or gutshots.

Have I crossed the border into spewy misapplication?

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
An example: Three limpers, I limp A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO. BN raises, blinds and limpers call.

Flop [13+SB]: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
HJ, who plays way too many hands preflop and bets all kinds of hands postflop leads out.

I think this is a good spot to raise -- the pot is large, and the bet has come from my right from a somewhat aggressive player. Although the BN must either have a hand that has me crushed or that is drawing to 3-6 outs, it's worth it to me to take a chance that HJ is either betting a draw or will give me a free look at the river while possibly knocking out some small to medium pairs, overcards or gutshots.

Have I crossed the border into spewy misapplication?

[/ QUOTE ]

raising this flop is ok to me if you have a plan on the turn and river UI.

[gobbledygeek]

I must admit, I've never been fully comfortable with this example in SSHE. I think I sometimes fall into the spewmonkey category by always thinking I should raise/fold when the bet comes from right in a decent pot.

Firstly, is the play here read-dependent on the late position bettor? There are many regular players at my 2/4 table that are only betting this with at minimum top pair (a lot of weak players don't bet draws or middle pair when it is checked round to them). Does it still make sense to charge ourselves more when there is a good chance (if read is correct) that we have to improve to win? How much do we gain by knocking out opponents when we still have to improve to win?

Secondly, I don't believe SSHE explains what the plan on the turn is (although I could be wrong, I don't have the book in front of me). So we raise the flop, then what? If we get a couple of callers do we simply check the turn UI, or are we forced to bet? Even if we get it heads up, are we again forced to bet UI? Again, at my 2/4 table I'm usually betting into a bigger hand at this point. So I guess the plan is now to check UI and see if we have the odds to continue if bet into?

GcluelessnoobG