Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck

[roggles]

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Rogg, you know better than this. Think of the classic stud example of showing quads on the board. Obviously, if you are showing quads your opponent is going to have the worst hand most of the time, but a bet is clearly very very bad because you are only getting action if you are beat. The same logic applies in situations like this.

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But if you read my other post I *should* be getting action from worse hands, if he thinks I am still drawing on 6th. Ok, if this guy is the typical weak-tight river player I'm perhaps not getting great value, but as I said in this case I should definitely bet any total river brick, so this can't be "horrible" no matter which player type he is.

[iStackBooks]

Okay...

1. I agree that you should bet any river brick here. You are repping a made 7 and if you make a 3rd pair or hit a face card on 7th you obviously have to try and win the pot by betting...

2. I also understand your next point - if this is true then your opponent will expect you to be betting awful hands a lot of the time and call you down very light, making this a good spot to value bet.

There are a few problems with this line of thinking Rogg. First of all, if your opponent is as bad as you say he is, you can't give him credit for this kind of multiple level analysis. Second, your actual hand on 6th is way worse than the hand you are representing. Given the action on previous streets, when you bet on 7th, I think he is very likely to think "he is betting his made 7 or 6 for value".

I am not saying that I never bet my hand vs. his board - I just don't in this situation. The only way I bet is if I feel the strength of my hand is discredited in some way. For example, if I had entered this hand in steal position then I would probably bet this river and expect him to call me down lighter. Also, if I showed weakness/played this hand awkwardly and given my opponent a good reason to think I was full of it then I would also probably bet.

In this situation, however, I believe you have played your hand exactly the same way you would've played a made 7. Your opponent isn't calling you down to 7th because he thinks you are floating - he is calling you down to 7th because he has a very big draw. On 7th, one of two things is going to happen:

1. He is going to hit a better hand than you
2. He is going to hit a worse hand than you

In the case of #1, he is at least calling EVERY time, and raising a lot of the time. In case #2, he is making a J, Q, or K and has to be the biggest retard in the world to call you down given how this hand has played out. Therefore, betting is pointless - worse hands fold, better hands play...

Like I said before, the only way I bet in this specific situation is if my opponent is good, and I want to keep him on his toes. Now if you check and he bets, you have a tough decision on your hands. I would base my decision a lot on the speed of his bet... an instabet in this spot is virtually never a bluff...

[Raxxmataxx]

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1. I agree that you should bet any river brick here. You are repping a made 7 and if you make a 3rd pair or hit a face card on 7th you obviously have to try and win the pot by betting...

[/ QUOTE ]Well,no. He should bet his worst hands because those are the best hands to bluff with, and he should bluff about once for every seven valuebets.

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2. I also understand your next point - if this is true then your opponent will expect you to be betting awful hands a lot of the time and call you down very light, making this a good spot to value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]HIs opponent can't expect him to have a lot of bricks here, because he would have played his pairs and made hands identically from fifth onwards.

And more to the point, we don't know what the other guy expects.

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I am not saying that I never bet my hand vs. his board - I just don't in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]I think the idea that you should vary how you play a lot of hands is close to the biggest mistake in poker. Some hands should be varied, but certainly not on the river and even before the river most hands should be played exactly the same if the situation is the same.

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Your opponent isn't calling you down to 7th because he thinks you are floating - he is calling you down to 7th because he has a very big draw. On 7th, one of two things is going to happen:

[/ QUOTE ]If he has a big draw he must have checked a 4-card wheel on 4th. It's much likelier he just calls with a huge range here.

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In case #2, he is making a J, Q, or K and has to be the biggest retard in the world to call you down given how this hand has played out.

[/ QUOTE ]A jack has about 20% equity against hero's range before betting.

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Like I said before, the only way I bet in this specific situation is if my opponent is good, and I want to keep him on his toes.

[/ QUOTE ]That's exactly what you shouldn't do against a good opponent who had a huge draw on 6th. It's a pretty horrible play since you got crap equity for betting and a very good hand for check calling.

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Now if you check and he bets, you have a tough decision on your hands.

[/ QUOTE ]No he doesn't; it's an autocall 100% of the time.

[tinkerman]

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Like I said before, the only way I bet in this specific situation is if my opponent is good, and I want to keep him on his toes.

[/ QUOTE ]That's exactly what you shouldn't do against a good opponent who had a huge draw on 6th. It's a pretty horrible play since you got crap equity for betting and a very good hand for check calling.


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If you are check/calling then what's different with bet and being called. You lose the same amount either way. The only difference comes if he'd fold when you bet with him having an 8, 9 or 10.

The neagtive angle of betting is if he raises (which would be hard if you had a made 7 and drawing lower) or that he'll bluff with a worse hand.

It's close and a bet doesn't seem wrong but depends on if you opponent is a caller or willing to fold.

[SGspecial]

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But if you read my other post I *should* be getting action from worse hands, if he thinks I am still drawing on 6th. Ok, if this guy is the typical weak-tight river player I'm perhaps not getting great value, but as I said in this case I should definitely bet any total river brick, so this can't be "horrible" no matter which player type he is.

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The issue in this hand between bluffing the river or betting it for value is that when you bluff you're laying 1BB to win the pot, but when you value bet you're laying 1BB to win 1BB. With a pot this size, a bluff only has to work 14%+ of the time to show a profit, but a value bet has to be called and won 50%+ and raised 0% (or the calls have to be even more frequent if you may be raised).

[Praxising]

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If you are check/calling then what's different with bet and being called.

[/ QUOTE ]You might bet and get raised?

[Raxxmataxx]

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If you are check/calling then what's different with bet and being called.

[/ QUOTE ]There's a huge difference.

To begin with, if your opponent actually has a very strong draw the ten isn't an equity favorite. Depending on his hand you've got something like 45% prior to betting. So the hand has a ton of showdown value, but it hasn't got value on the actual betting.

The only better hands you can get rid of is possibly tens and nines, and that's not hands he has very often, nor are guaranteed to lay down. If he thinks you're betting 100% of your hands on 5th and 6th hands like nines and tens has decent equity.

So it is a crappy bluffing hand, since most of the laydowns it generates it would've won anyway and hasn't got value if your opponent was drawing to a seven or better.

Further, a good player with a very strong draw is going to be raising quite a lot when your best hand is a six and your probable hand is a seven and there's a good possibility you're actually paired. I'm thinking he'll raise any smooth seven or better coupled with a some of the bricks.

And you're also going to valuebet a lot of other hands in your range. Remember, T7 is in your bottom 15% due to there being so many 76:s from when you didn't actually pair going to the river.

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You lose the same amount either way. The only difference comes if he'd fold when you bet with him having an 8, 9 or 10.

[/ QUOTE ]You also lose out on any bluffs he would have made had you checked.

I think there may be some value betting against the guy described in the top post. But that's because he sounds he's very loose and plays the river too passively.