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  #11  
Old 11-15-2007, 10:33 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: Razz - calling 4th?

[ QUOTE ]
if you call 3rd you have to call 4th, so make the decision then.

[/ QUOTE ]I think because it was only completed and not reraised I wouldn't feel like I had to - I believe Rusty is of the opinion you need at least a reraise to auto-call 4th. But maybe that's different up at this level from the micro we usually play? Basically, it was like ceegee said - I just felt like playing it and I knew if I saw it posted I'd be saying "FOLD 3RD!" I like your idea of deciding on 3rd, tho.' Takes the drama out of playing. I had already decided if I bricked paint and he got a real good card I was outta there - but then it was 9/T and I was surprised he bet and kinda thrown off my little plan.

Not made for high-level play.
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  #12  
Old 11-15-2007, 10:50 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: Razz - calling 4th?

[ QUOTE ]
BTW you play $5/10 now?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO! nononono. I was going to also post a .50/1 hand but I have so many files I couldn't find it.

This was my first foray to 5/10 and only because I saw two new guys I had been playing the night before at .50/1 and they weren't too good there. It wasn't a full table and I watched it for a while and thought, "If I blow through my money at micro I don't know when I'll get a chance to reload, so, if I ever want to play up here, now's the time to give it a shot." Two new players with too much money - I tried to avoid the regulars and play with them.

It was fun. It was easier then micro. It was odd, tho,' one guy called me on the river with K hi. But I can't play there. Most of those players had like, more then my whole bankroll on the table. I made about $40 and scooted. Then I made another $12 playing .50/1. A very good day for me.

But....someday......

If you haven't seen Stars lately, the Razz tables are going crazy. Must be that WSOP HORSE trny. Chad trying to make up for previous remarks by joking around about how popular Razz would become.

I might make it up there, yet!
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  #13  
Old 11-15-2007, 11:01 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default Re: Razz - calling 4th?

I haven't decided what I think about 4th. The typical rules for how many bets you want in the pot is not totally applicable because your hands are relatively close in value. Folding is the more conservative route, and if it's a mistake to fold, it can't be a big one. This is a hand that is going to be high variance and is going to require some careful decisions on probably every future street. You're drawing 2 cards to an 8, and your outs are pretty dead.

The biggest difference between Q vs J and T vs 9 is this:
You need to catch better than a 9 AND catch better than your opponent. You'll catch better than your opponent half the time, but in the 9/T case you'll improve 50% of the time, in the Q/J case you'll improve something like 75% of the time.

That's a big difference: that's 1:1 vs 3:1
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  #14  
Old 11-21-2007, 04:04 AM
MickeyB105 MickeyB105 is offline
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Default Re: Razz - calling 4th?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you should fold 3rd

[/ QUOTE ]
I know! It's horrible, isn't it? I think I called because all those little cards folded and I thought, "There must be a lot of little cards out." Dumb. It was one of those "feeling" hands. And I ended up winning it and being real embarrassed because I played it so badly.

Maybe I called because I was surprised at the bet from the 9. I would've checked, I think, to a T. And it's all Rusty's fault, anyway, he convinced me to start playing 8s.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like that you gambled a lil on this hand. Your thinking with all the little cards in the window isn't far-fetched. Your opponent would have been better off trying to bluff on 5th street than attempt it on 4th. Also, if he did have you dominated he would be likely to check on fourth to induce a bluff from you on 5th if you'd bee playing fast. I love the play here. A raise from you on 4th would have been ballsy, but not necessarilly out of line.
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  #15  
Old 11-21-2007, 04:54 AM
iStackBooks iStackBooks is offline
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Default Re: Razz - calling 4th?

Although I probably call here around half the time depending on how I feel about it at the moment, I think the right move is probably to fold 4th. Here's the math:

Razz Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: 556a2
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
a83t 40.70% 243,476 1,472
8-8-a9 59.30% 355,052 1,472

A9 and two cards 8 or under is a 60% favorite over A83T. Technically you are getting good pot odds (about 4-1)... but I don't think they are good enough to offset:

1. the difficulty of playing your hand on later streets (he has the betting power and you'll have to fold if he hits good)

2. heavy reverse implied odds (you are making the 2nd best hand a lot of the time here and paying him off all the way to 7th)

and such things as this

I would only want to play this if I thought I had a pretty significant skill advantage over my opponent.
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  #16  
Old 11-21-2007, 05:08 AM
iStackBooks iStackBooks is offline
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Default Re: Razz - calling 4th?

Or if he is known to bluff...
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  #17  
Old 11-21-2007, 10:19 AM
SGspecial SGspecial is offline
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Default Re: Razz - calling 4th?

[ QUOTE ]
fold because your draw is bad and missing 87 cards.

J/Q (or 9/9) would be a call IMO though.

[/ QUOTE ]
How did I miss this thread to begin with? Prax at 5/10?? You need to let us know this in the thread subject!

Adar: why are you drawing the call/fold line between catching a T or a 9 vs. villain's 9? With hero's 8 kicker the difference is almost inconsequential (2% equity actually).
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  #18  
Old 11-21-2007, 01:41 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: Razz - calling 4th?

cause a 9 is gonna play a whole lot better when your 8 is concealed.
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  #19  
Old 11-21-2007, 02:59 PM
SGspecial SGspecial is offline
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Default Re: Razz - calling 4th?

[ QUOTE ]
cause a 9 is gonna play a whole lot better when your 8 is concealed.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a good point, but I still think a small effect in this hand. Unless villain is a LAG you have to give him credit for a very strong starter and he's likely to think he's got the better 9 on all streets. In this case, he'd be right.
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  #20  
Old 11-21-2007, 09:08 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: Razz - calling 4th?

[ QUOTE ]
Unless villain is a LAG you have to give him credit for a very strong starter

[/ QUOTE ]

what, he's open folding T5A? no he isn't.

[ QUOTE ]
and he's likely to think he's got the better 9 on all streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

or he's likely to just bet and/or call his board, which is what 99% of people on FTP do anyway.
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