.25/.50 LO8 2nd nut low draw

sfgiants · #1 07-21-2007, 04:07 PM

Both Villains have been playing >50% of their hands, so I didn't put them on A2. Nonetheless, should I have folded (or even bet out) on the flop?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Omaha/8 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

BradleyT · #2 07-22-2007, 05:14 AM

Your starting hand has great scoop potential. If a 2 and any other low card flop you'll want to get much money in the pot since you'll often have lots and lots of straight outs. Or if two diamonds flop with 1 or 2 low cards your hand can be played very strongly.

However none of that happened and all you have now is a crappy hand.

Buzz · #3 07-22-2007, 06:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
should I have folded (or even bet out) on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]Giant Fan. I'd tend to bet the flop.

Buzz

sfgiants · #4 07-22-2007, 04:26 PM

Thank you both for the input.

Jimbotbs · #5 07-26-2007, 05:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd tend to bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you explain that to me please?
IMO it is a clear fold because we missed the flop totally (but I am new to this game).

Buzz · #6 07-26-2007, 07:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Could you explain that to me please?

[/ QUOTE ]Jim - I'll try. Hero really only has the second nut low draw here, so that in a way betting is an audacious move, and yet betting does not really seem audacious to me at all.

Four players, including Hero have seen the flop with Hero being number three in the betting order. The first two players check the flop. I wonder what they have. Since they are both blind posters, at this point I put them on random cards. Also at this point, Hero has flopped the second nut low draw.

I also wonder what CO holds. CO probably has better than random cards, but very hard to know what. CO might fold to a bet from Hero, as might both blinds. However, if Hero checks, then CO will probably bet, and if so, Hero cannot tell if CO actually has a flop fit or is merely betting because nobody else did, perhaps in hopes of getting a free card on the river. In other words, if Hero bets, CO may fold a hand he otherwise would have bet. Hero should like CO to fold. If so, and if the blinds continue, maybe Hero can take the free card option himself. Indeed, CO did bet after Hero checked, and both blinds called, more or less all as expected. Do you know what cards CO holds? Do you know what cards either blind holds, or even how good any hands or flop fits are? I don't. I did not gain any insight, based on the betting on the second betting round. No clues.

So basically by betting, (1) Hero possibly wins the pot, or (2) promotes his hand from a possible half pot winner to a possible scooper, and (3) by the way CO, SB, and BB react, may gain insight into their possible hands. In addition, (4) by betting Hero somewhat disguises future hands where he will have flopped the nuts or nut draws.

On the other hand, if Hero checks, he really doesn't get much of an idea of where he stands. CO is more or less expected to opportunistically bet and since that is the case, both blinds are more prone to opportunistically call without having much of a flop fit themselves. Hero is left to either fold or chase with a non-nut draw for the low half of the pot.

I think SB or BB, if holding the nut low draw, might have bet. The absence of this bet does not prove they don't have such a draw, but does fortify the possibility they don't have it. But either might have an ace-four low draw, the same as Hero. If so, having checked already, perhaps they won't want to chase without a draw to the nuts. Thus Hero is less likely to get quartered.

I have to agree with you that Hero's hand does not have a great fit with this flop, but there is something more than nothing there.

While the pair of threes hardly constitutes a fit with the flop for high, it is something, and there are two cards yet to be seen. The six as a back-up for low if Hero is counterfeited counts for something too, as does the back-door nut flush draw and a couple of possibilities for back-door straights.

If Hero bets, his thinking opponents will have to consider the possibility he has a set of kings and/or the nut low draw. He doesn't have that, but his opponents don't know he doesn't and probably don't have it either - and if they do, Hero hopes they will act in such a way so as to better define their hands.

Not sure if I quite made why I would bet this flop clear or not. I think if you're just starting, it's not bad advice for you to only draw for the nuts after the flop. But although I'm still (and probably always will be) learning the game, I'm not just starting. Playing like a beginner would be a relatively poor way for me to play because I can do better than that - as can many of the posters and readers of this forum, many of whom are more advanced students of the game than I am.

Buzz

Jimbotbs · #7 07-26-2007, 07:25 AM

Thanks a lot for explaning this to me. Now it makes sense to me.