The Myth of Meaning - Page 7

sww · #61 10-12-2007, 07:54 AM

You have a chance to give value for any hour when you still exist. After your death you don't have such chance. Im not saying that its easy to have a meaningful eternal life but that meaning is impossible in mortal life.

luckyme · #62 10-12-2007, 09:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then it does not depend on his existing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It most certainly does depend on his exisitng. What you fail to understand is that when you believe in God, when you accept him, then he exists. That is what is mean by belief. Religion is based on Faith. If you are looking for proof forget it there is no proof. God exisits for those that accept him and love him and in return he loves those that beieve in him. What is it that you do not understand about that?

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting to the point of the thread. One way to frame it was .. Does the mere FACT of god's existence create meaning in human life or is it the persons belief in god that gives his life meaning? If belief in god gives a persons life meaning then it's not necessary that god exists.

Obviously there is no issue with the meaning coming from our belief, basically that's where we get all our meaning. The question in the tread has been HOW the meaning gets 'turned on' without requiring a persons viewpoint to create it.

"God exists for those accept .." seems to support that it's the 'belief' or 'acceptance' that is the source of the meaning, since it doesn't exist unless a person believes it can't be sourced in the mere existence of god.

essentially we agree so far. you're obviously a theist that doesn't believe that "life has meaning because god exists" which is the view I've been probing.

( mind you, I suspect you're not a typical theist because they often express the view that god loves us whether we believe in him or not ... he just wants to lovingly torture unbelievers in hell.)

luckyme

luckyme · #63 10-12-2007, 09:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
not god spraying meaning-juice

[/ QUOTE ]

Here yu are being chldish. You do not want to discuss, you want to ridiule. I'm done with this.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, I'd dance half-naked in a tutu if it would get a theists attention to answer what seems to be both a fundamental question about theism and a commonly stated one.

You did answer, but you essentially agreed with the view that the meaning comes from the belief and doesn't exist for those without the belief. That applies to my belief that my kid is a the cutest in town.

"God exists, therefore there is meaning" rather than your, "I believe god exists, so he loves me and that gives meaning"
Obviously believing X exists and it being true that it loves you doesn't add meaning on it's own ( think stalker).

My problem has been I'm not the one that makes the claim, I'm asking of those that do ( or think they understand it) what the hell it means ... HOW does it work.

I'm surprised ( well, not really I 'spose) that 10 theist s didn't chime in with' "of, fer christs luckyme, obviously xyz.." so I'm starting to think there is something wrong with how they state the claim they make and it's not just me misunderstanding it.

luckyme

kurto · #64 10-12-2007, 10:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What you fail to understand is that when you believe in God, when you accept him, then he exists. That is what is mean by belief. Religion is based on Faith. If you are looking for proof forget it there is no proof. God exisits for those that accept him and love him and in return he loves those that beieve in him. What is it that you do not understand about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

So.... anything you believe exists must exist? If a child believes in the tooth fairy then there is a tooth fairy?

If I believe 2+2=5 then it is true?

I'm not clear on what you're saying. Or at least its import. If I believe there is a magicial invisible fairy that protects me from harm and loves me... it doesn't me that there is one. I believe there was a man recently that jumped into a lion cage because he believed God would protect him. Perhaps the problem was that the lion was an atheist? Anyhoo... your statement is meaningless.

Just because some people believe there is a God doesn't make it real.

kurto · #65 10-12-2007, 10:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Now religion gives us a chance for an eternal life and thuss the possibility for any kind of meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Religion does no such thing. You can have all the religions you want but it doesn't mean that there is any truth in them, that it changes the term of your life or makes it more meaningful.

and... your logic about eternity being needed to make life meaningful doesn't make sense.

Let's say in your life you accomplish X... and then you die.
If you accomplish X and then live 50 times longer... the value or meaning of X is the same.
If you accomplish X and then live for an eternity.... X still has the same meaning.

I think another problem is... no one is bothering to define what "meaning" is? Since this means something different to nearly every, its quite likely that we are saying different things when we respond to each other.

Even the question of does life have to have "meaning" is unanswered.

sww · #66 10-12-2007, 11:29 AM

The problem is that when you die, your personal X goes to zero. Of course only from your point of view but thats what matters right? Now if you happened to live forever, your X would remain and something real could be possible. We are now having momental X but it is not real if it is goig to vanish. That is my point.

Now about the truth out there - we don't know it but we can make assumptions i.e. god exists and thuss life can have a meaning.

luckyme · #67 10-12-2007, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Now about the truth out there - we don't know it but we can make assumptions i.e. god exists and thuss life can have a meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

People keep saying that, but since the OP question is HOW, it rather needs to be stretched beyond the four letters of THUS.

luckyme

kurto · #68 10-12-2007, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that when you die, your personal X goes to zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

But X lives beyond your life. It means nothing to you... but if your dead, it doesn't matter. X only matters to you while you're alive. But most lives have meaning beyond their own life... they touch the lives of people around them. Some better the lives of many others to come.

[ QUOTE ]
Now if you happened to live forever, your X would remain and something real could be possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

X is real as long as you are alive. Living forever only extends how long you personally can appreciate X.

[ QUOTE ]
Now about the truth out there - we don't know it but we can make assumptions i.e. god exists and thuss life can have a meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

assuming God exists does not now give you meaning because merely assuming God exists does not give you eternal life.

Your logic makes no sense.

sww · #69 10-12-2007, 12:01 PM

You can win as much money as you wish but if there is no god to permit a cashout it won't have any real meaning. In fact, in this godless scenario you should probably be seeking such god instead of blindly playing.

kurto · #70 10-12-2007, 12:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can win as much money as you wish but if there is no god to permit a cashout it won't have any real meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you God to cash out meaning? Life is a rich experience. If I live what to me is a full and satisfying life and then cease to exist... it was meaningful to me while it happened. Once I cease to exist, it no longer matters.

If you worship a God that doesn't exist... when you die, how is your life more meaningful?

For your weak poker analogy- What's more accurate is that in life, I can win money and take some cash out every week to spend on life's bounty. Perhaps the theists will win and keep it in the bank believing when they die they'll spend it in the afterlife. Depriving themselves of a full life, saving their winnings for an afterlife that, sadly enough, doesn't exist.

Clearly one needs God to have meaning. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]