odds calculators… helpful? or cheating?

[Absolut007]

Hello,

I am a newbie to online poker and so far I’ve just played Texas Hold‘em with friends. I thought it would be fun to try and play online poker. I was wondering what the deal is with odds calculators. My friend suggested a free one at pokerwingman.com. He suggested that I use it to get started. He told me it helps coach him by giving him suggestions of when to fold or when to bet. Another friend told me it's cheating to use one. I wanted to get other opinions on odds calculators. Do they really help? Are they considered cheating? Does anyone use them?

[diddyeinstein]

I use the odds calculator in my head, but your's sounds alot more effective.

It seems to me like it just serves the same purpose that playing thousands upon thousands of hands would do, i.e. knowing when you are favored.

As for cheating, it seems like the best an odds calculator could do is allow you to make the statistically correct choice at any point, which would not make you impossible to beat. At the worst, it would just make the innumerable suck-outs of online poker worse when you knew going in what percentage favorite your were.

I'm interested to hear other thoughts. Especially concerning whether or not this could be considered cheating.

[ocdscale]

Neither cheating nor helpful.

edit:
[ QUOTE ]
As for cheating, it seems like the best an odds calculator could do is allow you to make the statistically correct choice at any point

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't even allow you to do that.
Beginning players think only about the cards in their hands, and that's why they think odds calculators are extremely helpful: "I'm going to have a 19% chance to hit my draw and win this."
You need to think about what your opponent has, and an odds calculator isn't going to help with that.

[Small Fry]

My opionin - you are free to use any tools at your disposal as long as other have access to the same tools. Now you might say to me what if I'm rich and can pay $10,000 for this program to help me with my online play. What about those that can't afford it? Doesn't that give the rich guy an advantage? My answer. Possibly. But now he has a $10,000 cost he needs to recover too. What about the fact that I have a PhD in math, masters in game theory and a BS in psychology? Do I now have an unfair advantage? Or maybe I'm trained in the art of detecting tells like Joe Navarro and a lot of other, FBI, CIA, police officers. Do they have an unfair advantage? Possibly.

But these are not cheating. THey are making the best use of the tools available too you. You want to get a PHd in math, go for it. Or go through training to detect tells, feel free. WE all pick and chose what tools we want to use, some chose none, but as long as they're out there for all to use it's not cheating.

[Teddie]

[ QUOTE ]
Neither cheating nor helpful.

edit:
[ QUOTE ]
As for cheating, it seems like the best an odds calculator could do is allow you to make the statistically correct choice at any point

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't even allow you to do that.
Beginning players think only about the cards in their hands, and that's why they think odds calculators are extremely helpful: "I'm going to have a 19% chance to hit my draw and win this."
You need to think about what your opponent has, and an odds calculator isn't going to help with that.


[/ QUOTE ]


eh what?

Of course an odds calculator will help you. You need to know the odds your getting so you can make a correct call. Just because 99% of other micro players dont care about it doesnt means not important or helpful.

[ocdscale]

[ QUOTE ]
eh what?

Of course an odds calculator will help you. You need to know the odds your getting so you can make a correct call. Just because 99% of other micro players dont care about it doesnt means not important or helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Lets say you have 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Flop comes up A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Villain bets, and you have to decide whether to call, raise or fold.

Do you really think it's as simple as figuring out your odds to hit on the turn? Are all 7s, 8s and [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s outs for you? Are you sure? Are you even behind?

What happened preflop? What is Villain's likely range here?
Are you in position? Can you float Villain? If you raise, can he fold a Q? Does he cbet a lot? How aggressive is he?

What if we replace the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] with the 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Your odds of hitting a flush/two pair/trips on the turn don't change, but your equity changes tremendously against Villain's likely range. Odds of hitting on the turn are the same, but does that mean your action should be the same?

How does villain view your play? Does he think you've been playing tight? Does he think you've been bluffy? Has he seen you chasing draws before? Is he even thinking about this?
If you raise now, will he check to you on the turn? Do you want a free showdown or a free look at the river?

[Se7enTwo]

I'll admit as a new player I do use Holdem Indicator but not just for Win Odds/Pot Odds(which I still dont fully understand).
I like that fact that it continues to show my hole cards after a fold....(a big flaw in UBs software)(although I guess if you've folded it doesn't really matter)
It's also nice to see what you & your opponent "could" have by the river after a flop.

It will also keep track of your ring games & tournament stats separately (hands/vpip/pfr/af/wsd/wsdw)
For some reason I'm slightly loose/passive in ring games/ but tight/passive/solid in tournaments.....so just having that kind of output towards my play is worth it to me.

It also shows when you have the absolute nuts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

So as a fellow new player I can recommend it (or something similar)
It surely doesn't play for you so I don't consider it "cheating"

[Onear]

The calculator is very helpful for new players who are unaware of very fundemetal percentages (ex. pair v 2 overs, flush/ straight draws) Once you see theres enough you dont even need it anymore. It is in no way cheating.. all it does is give you percentages and it doesnt tell you anything a pen and pencial cant do. And you really cant use it in the middle of the hand with out knowing your opponents cards

[dwf76]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
eh what?

Of course an odds calculator will help you. You need to know the odds your getting so you can make a correct call. Just because 99% of other micro players dont care about it doesnt means not important or helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Lets say you have 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Flop comes up A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Villain bets, and you have to decide whether to call, raise or fold.

Do you really think it's as simple as figuring out your odds to hit on the turn? Are all 7s, 8s and [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s outs for you? Are you sure? Are you even behind?

What happened preflop? What is Villain's likely range here?
Are you in position? Can you float Villain? If you raise, can he fold a Q? Does he cbet a lot? How aggressive is he?

What if we replace the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] with the 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Your odds of hitting a flush/two pair/trips on the turn don't change, but your equity changes tremendously against Villain's likely range. Odds of hitting on the turn are the same, but does that mean your action should be the same?

How does villain view your play? Does he think you've been playing tight? Does he think you've been bluffy? Has he seen you chasing draws before? Is he even thinking about this?
If you raise now, will he check to you on the turn? Do you want a free showdown or a free look at the river?

[/ QUOTE ]



This kind of advice is much more useful to anybody new to the game than any software on the market,you need to get into the habit of thinking this way and not relying on a free download to make your decisions. nice post ocdscale