Beware

[Splendour]

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Splendour,

Is there room in certain parts of Christian philosophy for the fact that God himself allows a certain inclination towards not knowing the results himself?

I only ask because I find pure omnipotence illogical, and perhaps an extremely powerful being would find it very interesting to follow a development without knowing the results yet.

I guess what I'm saying he doesn't meddle, but he wouldn't be surprised by the results either. He knows all, just not which all and how it gets there.

Make sense?

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Well I can't speak for all Christians here, but I will give you my personal take. I think he allows us freewill within the boundaries of his plan, I personally think he does know everything. We're in a spiritual war 24/7 that most people don't perceive so they unwittingly join the wrong side, but God wins. The war is being fought on 2 fronts: first front is in the individual for the hearts and minds of men and second front is in the world at large so we have wars and all other kinds of conflicts.

That's why there are 2 kingdoms of God and people are constantly confused when the bible mentions the kingdom of god. Which kingdom is being talked about? Well there are two: 1) the kingdom of God that is within you 2) the kingdom of God that is a future place that will be established by God after Judgment Day. If you win the inner war then you may or may not pay a physical price with the outer war, but you ultimately win eternally.

I don't know if you read an earlier post I made where I put in the link to biblical prophecies. I find them very interesting. Here's the page to 10 of them currently being fulfilled. http://www.100prophecies.org/page1.htm

Note: its pretty hard for people to fight a double war when most of its unseen. That's why scripture is so important. It's about the only way we know about the war and can figure out what to do.


Quote: perhaps an extremely powerful being would find it very interesting to follow a development without knowing the results yet.

I kind of doubt this because this quality reminds me of human beings with their capacity to gossip and enjoy scandals and God specifically tells us not to indulge in gossip so I don't think he'd do it either.

[FortunaMaximus]

Thanks for taking the time. Found it interesting.

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Quote: perhaps an extremely powerful being would find it very interesting to follow a development without knowing the results yet.

I kind of doubt this because this quality reminds me of human beings with their capacity to gossip and enjoy scandals and God specifically tells us not to indulge in gossip so I don't think he'd do it either.

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That's not what I mean though. Gossip and petty matters, no. That such a being would stand back without passion and involvement and let the plan unfold without interfering.

Infinite regression. There's always a next question, next answer. That makes everything incomplete.

And science and religion, and this planet, it's incomplete but building toward something. You attest it's to a specific Judgment Day. Scientists point toward a technological/biological singularity.

Perhaps the two are the one and same and this civilization is on the cusp of going to the next level. I'm agnostic but understand hierarchy and the infinite and it seems to me there are similarities.

Human nature might desire the same things through different ways. It's good food for thought.

As for prophecies fulfilled, well... The universe or creation if you prefer in a Christian purview, is vast enough that if you write it, it'll eventually happen.

So in essence, we create our own future. You can't deny that if God exists, there is free will. The latitudes are really wide though. It's probably moreso a structure rather than a linear progression to a single point. But we can agree to disagree on that.

[Splendour]

Quote: That such a being would stand back without passion and involvement and let the plan unfold without interfering.

I doubt God is without passion because it says God is Love. If he would stand back and let things unfold in a global events kind of way because of his omniscience that I'm not sure about. Individually though he seems to be able to intervene. That is why Jesus says to ask for him to be able to receive him. Also I can say personally there are a few events in my own life where God intervened. Once where I didn't have time to ask and once where I asked him to help and once where I asked from help from a fellow Christian. I've also known several people that told me that God rescued them in various personal ways not just by the "spiritually saved" definition.

It is an interesting question though one that would take some thinking about. I do think though that in some sense that Jesus is a catalyst for change or a catalyst in a process. If you don't let the catalyst in then it can't work as much for you as for someone who does let it in.

If a person thinks back on his own life he most probably can see where he received a stupendous blessing against all odds. If he can't remember one then I bet he has plenty of friends that can verify they had one.

[FortunaMaximus]

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I doubt God is without passion because it says God is Love. If he would stand back and let things unfold in a global events kind of way because of his omniscience that I'm not sure about. Individually though he seems to be able to intervene.

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Passion and love are different things, but I get your point. It's more that he wouldn't need to interfere, unless necessary, much like my hypothesized extremely powerful being. But this would imply he isn't omnipotent, merely able to use seemingly omnipotent power when necessary. A minor quibble perhaps.

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It is an interesting question though one that would take some thinking about. I do think though that in some sense that Jesus is a catalyst for change or a catalyst in a process. If you don't let the catalyst in then it can't work as much for you as for someone who does let it in.

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I've said, and I'm not a Christian per se, but I have friends who are:

Jesus was a tough bastard. It was a brutal era, and I'm somewhat of a student of the Roman era. For him to be merely innocent and take a crucifixion for somebody to send a message that resounds through millennia.

Man or myth, and I tend to think man, I'm deeply impressed with the individual. Very few people have the ability to be a real martyr for the message of love and forgiveness. And they are powerful messages indeed.

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If a person thinks back on his own life he most probably can see where he received a stupendous blessing against all odds. If he can't remember one then I bet he has plenty of friends that can verify they had one.

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If they credit it to God, fine. That's not my inclination or belief although I understand the phenomenon. Attributing something to a higher power is a natural extension of human belief.

I just think Christian philosophy could use some improvement and upgrading. To adapt to the understanding that mathematics and science are much more than they were in the 1st-5th century A.D.

And individually and collectively, the religion's willingness to do that will bode the path and success of its evolution. For even faith and religion evolves, in my opinion. And tolerance of other beliefs and less of a monotheist approach would probably augur well for a Terran peace.

Time will tell whether all those things happen. But I envy your stronghold and faith in that God already knows. Quantum theory gives me less certainity in this, and I would not have it any other way.

[Splendour]

quote: I just think Christian philosophy could use some improvement and upgrading. To adapt to the understanding that mathematics and science are much more than they were in the 1st-5th century A.D.

Well what if we're on the end of a cycle now.

See http://www.100prophecies.org/page9.htm

Look at #8. We are finally in the ball park of some country being able to foot a 200 million man army.

#9 Could we actually stop the Euphrates? We sure are having a lot of weather fluctuations and we do have the ability to make dams. If we could build the Hoover Dam and tap into the furious Colorado River and stop flooding in the southwest U.S. it seems we could do this.

#10 is a piece of cake. We already have norplant for birth control and pacemakers to control our hearts. A sensing device under the skin to use to pay for goods. Easy. Europe just united under the Euro.

[FortunaMaximus]

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Well what if we're on the end of a cycle now.

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And entering a new one of enlightment? Perhaps.

Prophecies aside, it's a curious era. Knowledge is accelerating and expanding. Being Canadian, I'm naturally inclined towards peace and world peace just seems logical. The problem is, in the past and still, religion is the rationale for war.

#8: China can field an army that big if need be. The organization's probably there. But they're not aggressive expansionists like the Americans. They're more subtle meddlers. They should be the economic powerhouse for the 21st century.

#9 is just improved engineering and bigger dams, etc. Hardly cause for Biblical allusion.

#10? Technology, engineering again. That's hardly God's will but if you take solace in that he allows it because it is right.

I mean, there were smart people back in that fairly primitive era. They had imaginations.

What of Europe's reluctance to admit Turkey? The mideast? The factions within Christianity?

And we could go back and forth about this for a long time but basically it's this:

First get Earth in order, then the Solar System. Because the compendium of knowledge, engineering, and technology will get bigger, with some imagination on your part, you'll find those prophecies would repeat again across the 3rd millennia as we expand out into space.

And I don't think that's enough for your God. I don't know what would be, the entire Galaxy? How do you account for the fact that there are probably millions of habitable planets out there, and it remains for us to expand into this space.

And that's just one Galaxy. You see it as an already-there kingdom. I see humanity expanding all across the universe. And much more than that.

In my philosophy, there's no need for God. But people need faith and to believe in one. And that's a good thing. But the practical aims have to change, and the political aims have to change.

Turning the other cheek and negotiating with Islam would be a start.

[Splendour]

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Well what if we're on the end of a cycle now.

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And entering a new one of enlightment? Perhaps.

Prophecies aside, it's a curious era. Knowledge is accelerating and expanding. Being Canadian, I'm naturally inclined towards peace and world peace just seems logical. The problem is, in the past and still, religion is the rationale for war.

#8: China can field an army that big if need be. The organization's probably there. But they're not aggressive expansionists like the Americans. They're more subtle meddlers. They should be the economic powerhouse for the 21st century.

#9 is just improved engineering and bigger dams, etc. Hardly cause for Biblical allusion.

#10? Technology, engineering again. That's hardly God's will but if you take solace in that he allows it because it is right.

I mean, there were smart people back in that fairly primitive era. They had imaginations.

What of Europe's reluctance to admit Turkey? The mideast? The factions within Christianity?

And we could go back and forth about this for a long time but basically it's this:

First get Earth in order, then the Solar System. Because the compendium of knowledge, engineering, and technology will get bigger, with some imagination on your part, you'll find those prophecies would repeat again across the 3rd millennia as we expand out into space.

And I don't think that's enough for your God. I don't know what would be, the entire Galaxy? How do you account for the fact that there are probably millions of habitable planets out there, and it remains for us to expand into this space.

And that's just one Galaxy. You see it as an already-there kingdom. I see humanity expanding all across the universe. And much more than that.

In my philosophy, there's no need for God. But people need faith and to believe in one. And that's a good thing. But the practical aims have to change, and the political aims have to change.

Turning the other cheek and negotiating with Islam would be a start.

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Well its seems like we entering the political sphere now. I agree China has historically been isolationist but as it modernizes will the "sleeping giant" awake? There will be more competition for oil than ever since they are rapidly industrializing. Also now we have water as a possible source of energy. I'm not sure what the significance this would be politically since many Mid-East nations depend on selling their oil as a major source of income. If water doesn't become economically viable source for a while then will oil cause some countries to unite to be able to contend with China for oil?

I know why it could seem that people 2,000 years ago could have the imagination to perceive these things but the actual writers were of humble origins and claimed divine inspiration and many of their prophecies regarded the times they lived in as well as end time prophecy. They were not of the intelligentsia or academia. Also if they did perceive them as you are speculating then how come it seems like their is a timeline of sorts. How come biblical scholars can discern a general timeline?

[FortunaMaximus]

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Well its seems like we entering the political sphere now. I agree China has historically been isolationist but as it modernizes will the "sleeping giant" awake? There will be more competition for oil than ever since they are rapidly industrializing. Also now we have water as a possible source of energy. I'm not sure what the significance this would be politically since many Mid-East nations depend on selling their oil as a major source of income. If water doesn't become economically viable source for a while then will oil cause some countries to unite to be able to contend with China for oil?

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China uses copious amounts of coal and is a little lax about pollution controls. I wouldn't worry about the sleeping giant waking, but they might repeat the Japanese economic warfare from the eighties on a grander scale. That's not the Chinese way, to aggressively expand. They prefer to negotiate and find new territory, and grow inwards. They've had 5 millennia of civilization and no internal warfare except for the communist transition for over 2 millennia. That's not a coincidence. They intend to put people on the moon by 2020, and they're not gonna stop there. They have plenty of water and a good relationship with Canada. But let's not get into politics too much.

I agree that water is the lifeblood of humanity and the most vital resource we have. Once we start using it as energy, the boundaries of expansion are limitless. Warfare needs to stop. It won't, but we won't progress and the species faces more difficult times. The very idea of nuclear warfare alone should be a warning cry to the species itself. Better to use it as energy.

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I know why it could seem that people 2,000 years ago could have the imagination to perceive these things but the actual writers were of humble origins and claimed divine inspiration and many of their prophecies regarded the times they lived in as well as end time prophecy. They were not of the intelligentsia or academia. Also if they did perceive them as you are speculating then how come it seems like their is a timeline of sorts. How come biblical scholars can discern a general timeline?

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I'm currently thinking/working on quantum temporal theory and have made initial inroads, but I said above:

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As for prophecies fulfilled, well... The universe or creation if you prefer in a Christian purview, is vast enough that if you write it, it'll eventually happen.

So in essence, we create our own future.

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And in retrorespect, we create our pasts too. So those visionaries got it right. They should be given the congratulations they deserve, but no more than that. "Field of Dreams" for a cinema comparsion.

Aggressive tactics are not the way to a better world, and Christianity espouses it to a certain degree. It's a shame those who soldier in its name don't follow its percepts.

Inquisition, Crusades, and now this fractious state of the mideast and the polarity between Christianity and Islam.

[Subfallen]

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If a person thinks back on his own life he most probably can see where he received a stupendous blessing against all odds.

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Charming -

"Lucky", "miraculous", "against all odds!"...these labels only exist because we live with incomplete information. You wouldn't be surprised to hit your 1-outer if you stacked the deck, would you? No, only when the cards are shuffled!

On the macro scale of big life events, our knowledge is so incomplete that it's silly to make any post hoc probability estimates at all. Once event 'M' has happened, there's basically no reason to believe that P(M) was any less than 1.

[hitch1978]

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Well its seems like we entering the political sphere now. I agree China has historically .......................will oil cause some countries to unite to be able to contend with China for oil?

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China uses copious amounts of coal and is a little lax about pollution controls................. They intend to put people on the moon by 2020, and they're not gonna stop there. They have plenty of water and a good relationship with Canada. But let's not get into politics too much.

I agree that water is the lifeblood of humanity and the most vital resource we have. Once we start using it as energy, the boundaries of expansion are limitless. Warfare needs to stop. It won't, but we won't progress and the species faces more difficult times. The very idea of nuclear warfare alone should be a warning cry to the species itself. Better to use it as energy.


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WARNING - HIJACK!

Sorry to do this, but I just wanted to question the above (Bolded). I read the Independant, and they published this article on Friday -

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle3143287.ece

Would you mind joining the dots for me briefly?

TYIA.