Are we bluffing pf?

[shpanko]

So a recent hand post made me start thinking about calling vs 3-betting pf when we have hands like JJ/AQo/TT and the opener is a fairly solid player.

Obviously if you have extensive 3-betting history with a player then 3-betting good but not premium hands like JJ/TT/AQ will be a good idea because you will probably get calls/4 bets from weaker hands and can then adjust your play accordingly.

But when you don't really have that much history with a 23/17 or 20/16 and he opens UTG, is there value in reraising JJ/AQ? If we don't have a read that the player is spewy or calls pf 3-bets light then it feels like reraising JJ/AQ is essentially a bluff because he's never going to call OOP with a worse hand.

Calling still kind of sucks though because then we let them bluff us off the best hand a lot or catch a better flop despit us having the best hand pf.

So what do most of you guys do in these situations?

UTG (23/17) opens UTG and you have JJ? TT? AQo?
UTG (18/14) opens UTG and you have JJ? AQs?

I feel like this problem is still present even with later positions. If a good TAG opens in MP/CO and I repop with TT/AQ/JJ I feel like he's folding worse hands and he's really only calling with better hands that he's trapping with.

These situations will change a lot if both of us are deep or if we've been battling a ton. But with 100 BB stacks and little history what should we be doing in these situations because I feel like I still don't "get it"

[shpanko]

Anyone? I know this is broad but even a little advice/insight would be much appreciated. It's a topic that still bugs me, perhaps it's too situation/villain dependent but what are your typical lines with these hands vs UTG opens by solid TAG's?

[beachbum]

A truly good TAG should be able to outplay us with position, and know we can do the same with him. That being said, I'd be much more inclined to 3bet IP than OOP (CO rather than BB for example). A lot of it depends on who's left to act too. You'd rather not blow a bad player out of the hand if you can keep him in and extract postflop.

Overall, I think truly good TAG's (not regulars, or exploitable TAG's) should just end up pushing pots back and forth to each other in most 3-betting situations. 3b these hands enough to balance your play, but just don't forget where your real profit comes from.

[shpanko]

I agree that I 3-bet more IP, that being said good TAG's will really only call a 3-bet when OOP if they are trapping with a premium hand. So why are we three-betting these good but not premium hands if they won't call with worse?

[beachbum]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that I 3-bet more IP, that being said good TAG's will really only call a 3-bet when OOP if they are trapping with a premium hand. So why are we three-betting these good but not premium hands if they won't call with worse?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you can do it with premium hands as well. If you only ever just call with JJ IP instead of 3-betting, your 3b range in these particular spots becomes glaringly obvious.

[ManChild]

one of the reasons for many many things in poker, is that it will disguise our hands in other situations. if you only 3bet with the QQ+ here, he will quickly figure that out and exploit you very easily.

also, against a 20/17, with hands like JJ, you are ahead of his opening range UTG and therefore its not a bluff at all, its a value raise

[crunchi]

[ QUOTE ]
one of the reasons for many many things in poker, is that it will disguise our hands in other situations. if you only 3bet with the QQ+ here, he will quickly figure that out and exploit you very easily.


[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this is irrelevant because villain is unknown/little history. As we log more hands with villain it will become more of a concern.

[startrak]

yeah, what manchild said.
I would guess the cutoff is somewhere 15%+ i would reraise, but against 12% and less openers is just a call. and in between i would vary i guess.

[shpanko]

[ QUOTE ]
also, against a 20/17, with hands like JJ, you are ahead of his opening range UTG and therefore its not a bluff at all, its a value raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that we are usually ahead, but my point is that a solid TAG is almost never going to just call our 3-bet out of position with a weaker hand. If a TAG opens UTG, we three bet in position, most good TAG's are never going to flat call our 3-bet with a worse hand (assuming 100 BB stacks and little history).

When we do get called it's almost always by a better hand that is trapping us. So my question still stands, if our opponent isn't going to call us with worse, aren't we bluffing?

[Dire]

Really depends on how positionally aware/active the 23/17 is. If his steal% is something like 25%, I'm 3-betting his UTG raise with all of those hands. Most of those guys call 3-bets with way too wide a range - which TT/AQ are both doing great against. If he is very positionally aware and stealing closer to 35%, I'm not usually reraising his UTG range. As for the 18/14 - I'm almost never 3-betting those guys' UTG range.