Roulette Croupier Manipulation?

[oscark]

I was in a discussion with several casino employees. They claim many practiced Croupiers, using the right timing and force, can make the ball lands in a certain sector of the wheel at a much higher frequency than standard, making it profitable (and illegal) for him or her to team up with someone on the outside.

Is this possible? How do Casinos protect against it?

Thanks,

Oscar

[jackhigh]

This is very true. Happens mostly in smaller casinos and Indian Casinos.

[mothmandan]

Here is a bit of a long story but it may get the point across.

A while back I had an emergency shift as a stacker at a roulette table. The dealer I was working with had extensive experience and only dealt roulette (6 days a week, 10 hours a day). During one of my downs he hit two numbers in a row by chance then said "better bet that one again" and then shot me a look. He set the wheel, spun the ball and hit one off the number he was shooting for.

We talked after and he said the highest number of hits he had in a row was 5. He said it is pretty easy to hit one section a wheel if you try. However there are several things that prevent anyone from getting rich.

1- Despite the best efforts of any croupier it is almost impossible to avoid unexpected bounces off ball deflectors or other parts of the wheel. This will help keep some of the play random and prevents any scheme from working a large percentage of the time.

2- The number tree - If the floor supervisors have any idea of number distributions they will recognize when a croupier is pulling towards even one specific quarter of the wheel.

In croupier courses new dealers are taught to vary the speed of the wheel, and change the speed of the spin to prevent players from getting any edge.

If you want more info about this read Chris Pawlicki's book "Get the Edge at Roulette" which is part of Frank Scoblete's series of literary hopes and prayers. It isn't as easy as it is portrayed but you will get the idea.

The truth is if it was that easy to have a player come in, place a few bets, get the croupier to hit the numbers, and then split the winnings after then everyone would want to deal roulette. I don't know too many dealers who would risk going to jail over something that isn't a 100% lock.

Dan's 2 cents

[pzhon]

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He said it is pretty easy to hit one section a wheel if you try.

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I have no direct personal knowledge of how easy it might be to manipulate the roulette wheel. However, I have a lot of experience with gamblers, and people who say they can predict random numbers.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Far fewer people believe they can predict random numbers than say that they can. Many people say that they can predict the dice in online backgammon. I frequently offer to make side bets, e.g., if they think 6-6 happens 1/30 of the time, I'll pay 32:1. That almost always shuts people up. People don't believe the crap they say enough to bet on it.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Far fewer people have a real ability to predict random numbers, or to manipulate dice or the wheel, than believe that they do. It's very easy to find patterns in past data, and to exaggerate what you have seen.

I'm not going to say it's impossible to manipulate the roulette wheel. For all I know, it may be no more difficult than a perfect riffle shuffle, which many magicians can do reliably. However, given that someone tells you that they can manipulate the wheel, the probability that they actually can is very low. Even those who don't believe it themselves will have stories to try to get you to believe that they can.

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However there are several things that prevent anyone from getting rich.

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The obstacles you mention are not plausible. The advantage this ability would confer would be huge in comparison with other advantage gambles. It doesn't have to be close to a lock to be exploitable, and it doesn't have to be used in a way that would be obvious. If this ability really were common, it would be exploited often.

[jackhigh]

The roulette wheel is very far from "random". Casino's (especially smaller ones and Indian) use a skilled croupier to "clean out" a table.

This is very logical. A roulette table takes up valuable casino floor space, is very slow action and usually requires 2 dealers. Do you think a casino would be happy with just a 5ish percent return on a very slow costly game? If you think about it, even the dumbest of the dumb tourist gambler basically plays a "perfect strategy" when they pick any bet but one (5 bet-1,2,3,0,00) on the roulette wheel. All but one bet always has a 5ish percent house edge (don't know exact number and too lazy to look it up). Compare this with other casino "dumb tourist"table games, slots, keno, etc. Look at all the "bonus spot" table games with huge casino vig, most tourists don't play perfect basic blackjack strategy giving up huge vig to the casino, keno, slots- no need to elaborate on these. Craps have many "sucker bets" hard ways etc. that juice the casinos profit. Casinos aren't in business to just have a 5% house edge on a low volume game. So they basically "cheat" by aiming the ball - most noticeably in smaller casinos with minimal valuable floor space.

Easy to spot. Just watch and see if the dealer studies or looks at the wheel before he throws the ball. There is absolutely no reason a dealer needs to look at the wheel when he releases the ball. He is obviously looking for his target number to release the ball. Also listen for backspin. This enables the ball to "stick" in a slot and not bounce around. You will know it when you hear it.

It is hard for a dealer to cheat with a partner betting on target numbers simply because the pit boss is very aware of this technique and would absolutely scrutinize any large consistent wins on a dealer shift. Easy to look at the tape to see the dealer aiming. Why do you think they always yell out when they cash somebody out? So the Floorman always knows when there is a big payout.

With this in mind can a skilled player be able to beat the wheel by predicting where the dealer is aiming the ball?
Yes, but you have maybe 2-3 spins before the dealer is on to you because you have to bet after the ball is thrown and you usually give it away by betting sectors which the dealer is very familiar with.

Remember, "dealer aiming" does not happen in all casinos. Usually just the smaller ones like Oshea's, Casino Royale etc. I see it alot in Indian casinos (One time I saw a dealer in an Indian casino actually stop the wheel and re-spin it to her desired speed before every sequence!!)

[govman6767]

[ QUOTE ]
The roulette wheel is very far from "random". Casino's (especially smaller ones and Indian) use a skilled croupier to "clean out" a table.

This is very logical. A roulette table takes up valuable casino floor space, is very slow action and usually requires 2 dealers. Do you think a casino would be happy with just a 5ish percent return on a very slow costly game? If you think about it, even the dumbest of the dumb tourist gambler basically plays a "perfect strategy" when they pick any bet but one (5 bet-1,2,3,0,00) on the roulette wheel. All but one bet always has a 5ish percent house edge (don't know exact number and too lazy to look it up). Compare this with other casino "dumb tourist"table games, slots, keno, etc. Look at all the "bonus spot" table games with huge casino vig, most tourists don't play perfect basic blackjack strategy giving up huge vig to the casino, keno, slots- no need to elaborate on these. Craps have many "sucker bets" hard ways etc. that juice the casinos profit. Casinos aren't in business to just have a 5% house edge on a low volume game. So they basically "cheat" by aiming the ball - most noticeably in smaller casinos with minimal valuable floor space.

Easy to spot. Just watch and see if the dealer studies or looks at the wheel before he throws the ball. There is absolutely no reason a dealer needs to look at the wheel when he releases the ball. He is obviously looking for his target number to release the ball. Also listen for backspin. This enables the ball to "stick" in a slot and not bounce around. You will know it when you hear it.

It is hard for a dealer to cheat with a partner betting on target numbers simply because the pit boss is very aware of this technique and would absolutely scrutinize any large consistent wins on a dealer shift. Easy to look at the tape to see the dealer aiming. Why do you think they always yell out when they cash somebody out? So the Floorman always knows when there is a big payout.

With this in mind can a skilled player be able to beat the wheel by predicting where the dealer is aiming the ball?
Yes, but you have maybe 2-3 spins before the dealer is on to you because you have to bet after the ball is thrown and you usually give it away by betting sectors which the dealer is very familiar with.

Remember, "dealer aiming" does not happen in all casinos. Usually just the smaller ones like Oshea's, Casino Royale etc. I see it alot in Indian casinos (One time I saw a dealer in an Indian casino actually stop the wheel and re-spin it to her desired speed before every sequence!!)

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Heh [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This was a good read.

Some changes I would have made were that yes it's a low volume game. But when someone says they could make more money putting slots where the table is might not be true.

When you go to a casino is every single slot being played at once. No

Do all slot Players play roulette. No
Do some slot Players play roulett. Maybe
Do all roulette players play slots... NO
Do all roulette players play blackjack...No

Casinos spread roulette because some people are crazy for it and it's the only game they play. So by not spreading roulette they would be losing that customers income.

Roulette is the easiest of casino games to play except the money wheel. ( I would say slots too but lots of the new 500 coin spinners can get real confusing )

Roulette has a pretty big following and any casino is losing money by not having at least one wheel.

I think if a croup was cheating it was to keep SEVERE BOREDOm AT BAY. If my job was to spin that wheel for 8 hrs a day I would have put a .38 to my temple by now just thinking about how long and boring the days would be.

Practicing aim and precision gives him something to do so if they are cheating its to keep their minds busy and I think the croup would tend to help a player who is tipping than cheat him. I don't see a lot of players tip at roulette maybe it's time to start.

[NajdorfDefense]

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The roulette wheel is very far from "random". Casino's (especially smaller ones and Indian) use a skilled croupier to "clean out" a table.

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Just look for old wheels, wheels are not perfect and not random. If you watch for a few hours, you will *always* see a section that comes up more than it should, day after day after day on an old wheel.

Add that to a dealer who throws it the same way every time, and you can negate the house advantage, with high variability.

I thought this was all BS until a friend in AC proved me wrong over a period of several years at the same small casino with a few old wheels.

[jackhigh]

Its most likely not an "old wheel" but the dealer aiming at a certain sector. "sector 4" or the 8 numbers right before the 00 is usually the casinos most popular target. 1,3,13,15,22,24,34,36. these are proven to be the least bet numbers (as a whole sector) in roulette so the casino has a huge incentive in aiming for and hitting this sector.

[NajdorfDefense]

So you say, [and probably also true]but older wheels are not random [and some newer ones] and this is one reason they were able to 'cheat' the casinos in UK and elsewhere using technology.

I've seen wheels that had to be at least 20-25 years old at the same casino.

[Crane]

Most people don't know this, but they also use two diffeent sized balls. They are instructed to spin the ball fast and slow, and to vary the speed of the wheel.

Eudaemonic pi is a very good read.