Who is a better hitter? (Poll)

[vhawk01]

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sorry strikeouts are worse than other outs in most cases
you cant say they matter for pitchers but not for hitters
1)If someone with an extra 150 strikeouts put the ball in play those 150 times even if they were weak swing he would end up with 10-15 hits
2) to say not striking out is offset by gidp is idiotic
how many times does ichiro gidp? how about with a man on 3rd and 2nd and 3rd with less than 2 outs? How is GIDP offsetting not striking out there?

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so you are saying that after a guy strikes out, he should go back in time and take a weak, contact swing that time?

[vhawk01]

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you cant say they matter for pitchers but not for hitters

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Yes, you can.

And you're wrong. Read the whole thread for evidence why strikeouts aren't really any worse than other outs. The evidence exists.

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I'm not here to argue, but I'm curious if you could address a couple of things:

1) Is Adam Dunn more likely to hit into a double-play? If so, how is this measured in terms of productivity?

2) Let's say Ichiro singles and the next guy hits a HR. In retrospect it could be argued that it didn't matter whether Ichiro singled or homered because the end result was 2 runs. Also, because he singled and is a baserunning threat, some could argue that the next hitter might see better pitches to hit so his HR became more likely because of an Ichiro single. Is this quantifiable or just hypothetical garbage?

Basically, don't singles go up in value with better hitters behind you (in comparison to other singles), while homers go up in value with worse hitters behind you?

3) Also, is an Ichiro single more valuable than an Adam Dunn walk/single? If so, how is this quantified?

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I'll just address 2). What happens when Ichiro singles and then the next guy strikes out with 2 outs and the inning ends. It didn't matter if Ichiro singled or K'ed, right? You think the "single and then the next guy goes deep" outweigh the "single and then the inning ends harmlessly"?

[Eagles]

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Motorholdem isn't a retard for thinking Ichiro is better. He is a retard for pretty much every single OTHER thing he said.

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[Eagles]

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I'm not here to argue, but I'm curious if you could address a couple of things:

1) Is Adam Dunn more likely to hit into a double-play? If so, how is this measured in terms of productivity?

2) Let's say Ichiro singles and the next guy hits a HR. In retrospect it could be argued that it didn't matter whether Ichiro singled or homered because the end result was 2 runs. Also, because he singled and is a baserunning threat, some could argue that the next hitter might see better pitches to hit so his HR became more likely because of an Ichiro single. Is this quantifiable or just hypothetical garbage?

Basically, don't singles go up in value with better hitters behind you (in comparison to other singles), while homers go up in value with worse hitters behind you?

3) Also, is an Ichiro single more valuable than an Adam Dunn walk/single? If so, how is this quantified?

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1. I could be wrong but I don't think Adam Dunn is much more likely to hit into a double play. I think the fact that he hits more balls out of the infield and hits it harder evens out for Ichiro's speed more or less.

2. This is very results oriented thinking. If Ichiro gets a triple and the next three batters strike out than it could be argued that it didn't matter if Ichiro gets a triple or a strike out. A single gains value with better hitters behind you because it makes it more likely your team will score runs but this should not be considered in the players value because he cannot determine the success of the hitters before or after him. To answer your question yes this is just hypothetical garbage.

3. An Ichiro single is more valuable than an Adam Dunn walk/single because he is a much better baserunner. I don't know how exactly this can be quantified but its 100% true.

[Jack of Arcades]

Strikeouts matter for a pitcher because they have much less control over balls in play than hitters do. Adam Dunn can get away with striking out 170 times because he hits .390 when he makes contact on the ball. Pitchers can't rely on not striking guys, though, because they all tend to fall within a small range of average on balls in play.

As for your other concerns:

1) If Adam Dunn were to trye to reduce strikeouts by making weak contact instead of striking out, he would lose a lot of his value, probably much more than 10-15 singles
2) sorry, the numbers have been run. overall the strikeout is a slight detriment. Yes, in certain situations a strikeout is a big hindrance. Overall the difference is minimal.

[Jack of Arcades]

I think an Ichiro single might have less value b/c a lot of his hits are infield hits. YOu could just replace all of those infield hits with walks. I'm not sure the bonus you'd give him for having better baserunning or basestealing ability, though.

[mo42nyy]

JOA-
Adam Dunn can get away with striking out 170 times because he hits .390 when he makes contact on the ball. Pitchers can't rely on not striking guys, though, because they all tend to fall within a small range of average on balls in play.


This sounds really interesting and has peeked my curiosity. Is there any site that lists every hitter avg on balls put in play as well as every pitcher avg against?

[Pudge714]

If you say a ball in play is better because the infield can boot it etc.
You can also say swinging at the ball as hard as possible is good because you can hit HRs.

[Spy Dog]

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2) Let's say Ichiro singles and the next guy hits a HR. In retrospect it could be argued that it didn't matter whether Ichiro singled or homered because the end result was 2 runs. Also, because he singled and is a baserunning threat, some could argue that the next hitter might see better pitches to hit so his HR became more likely because of an Ichiro single. Is this quantifiable or just hypothetical garbage?

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2. This is very results oriented thinking. If Ichiro gets a triple and the next three batters strike out than it could be argued that it didn't matter if Ichiro gets a triple or a strike out. A single gains value with better hitters behind you because it makes it more likely your team will score runs but this should not be considered in the players value because he cannot determine the success of the hitters before or after him. To answer your question yes this is just hypothetical garbage.

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But doesn't Ichiro have some influence on the hitters after him? Aside from the obvious benefit of stealing a base, doesn't the threat of stealing a base have a positive impact on the current hitter? And, how does this show up in a metric?

Will a hitter get a better selection of pitches with Ichiro on first or Dunn?

Also, if Ichiro runs on the pitch and the SS or 2B has to cover does this increase the chances of the hitter getting a hit on a ball in play because of the absence of the fielder from the optimal fielding position? If so, what metric show this?

[Neuge]

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Also, because he singled and is a baserunning threat, some could argue that the next hitter might see better pitches to hit so his HR became more likely because of an Ichiro single.

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All your other points have been addressed, so I'll just tackle this one. Some could say that, but the complete opposite is true. It's more beneficial to have a more patient hitter behind. DUCY?

In the end there's a slight difference, but it amounts to at most 5 runs/season. So yes, it's mostly hypothetical garbage.