Monotone flop deep in the 3R

[registrar]

Nate,

In a minority of one, I still like check call/ lead non diamond turn in the $3r. I think you stand more chance of getting a better hand to fold this way (rarely but I can see it), get more money from one diamond pocket pairs which may or may not fold to a flop push, get folds out of A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

[Nate.]

Registrar --

I think this line is one of the better ones, but I'm not sure if it's the best. A disadvantage is that hands that would have folded will sometimes get there. An advantage is that we'll get some more chips out of a few hands that fold, and a few hands will both miss the turn and fold once we get there. Hopefully I'll have time to put some numbers to this at some point. Even better, someone else could do it.

0evg0 --

Why? I agree the play is uncomfortable. That's why I'm posting it.

--Nate

[registrar]

Somebody else will have to the numbers. My reason for this line is the standard opposition and how moderately competent low buyin players will play deep in something like the $3r. However, I haven't played it for ages.

I think if we push the flop, they read this as either TP type hand, and call with a pair+ diamond a lot of the time, or a big diamond type hand and call with TP a lot of the time. They expect an overbet to be, essentially, a bluff and will call with any made hand or a dog with outs. It's just a spastic reaction that many MTT players have to being overtly pushed around.

They don't expect and thus don't like to be check-called and have no idea what a turn lead means. Something a wee bit less than a quarter of the time, a diamond falls on the turn and we have to give this up but that's not very often and I just don't think we fold enough hands by pushing the flop.

Also, even when a diamond turns, a non-zero % of the time, villain will check behind with a middle diamond and we get a cheap, though fairly pointless, showdown and a queen will shut down completely giving us two streets to overtake.

[Bond18]

[ QUOTE ]
Nate,

In a minority of one, I still like check call/ lead non diamond turn in the $3r. I think you stand more chance of getting a better hand to fold this way (rarely but I can see it), get more money from one diamond pocket pairs which may or may not fold to a flop push, get folds out of A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I've gotta agree here, the pot is just to small for me to jam my stack in.

On the turn if a nasty card comes i can c/f without doing serious damage to my stack and i think we RAAAAAAAAAARELY get bluffed out by a worse hand against a somewhat weak player whose just as scared of your draw as you are of his.

[skier_5]

If villian bets the flop, can someone enlighten me why leading the turn here is good?

If it's checked through I can see a reason to bet, but I'm having trouble if he bets the flop.

[registrar]

Because he folds a lot of hands he bets on the flop and that he calls on the flop. We can lead quite small on the turn and he has to decide then whether he really wants to put his tourney life on the line with an oversuit or pp+suit. It's horrible thing for him to face with pretty much any holding: PFR cc's flop and leads turn small.

I'm defintely check-calling the flop. I don't like check raise on the flop but this is effectively a delayed check-raise for the same reasons that will get called by fewer naked diamonds.

[skier_5]

[ QUOTE ]
Because he folds a lot of hands he bets on the flop and that he calls on the flop. We can lead quite small on the turn and he has to decide then whether he really wants to put his tourney life on the line with an oversuit or pp+suit. It's horrible thing for him to face with pretty much any holding: PFR cc's flop and leads turn small.

I'm defintely check-calling the flop. I don't like check raise on the flop but this is effectively a delayed check-raise for the same reasons that will get called by fewer naked diamonds.

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umm, why cant he call? esp if you bet small. I know this is the 3r so its a moot point, but against even a reasonable decent player, your hand is pretty transparent. so you are saying you should bet this turn to fold out some hands that might catch, say a d, and win a showdown but are too weak to do anything but check it down? because that is the only upside i see...

[registrar]

This all sort of depends on how much he bets on the flop, if he bets, but I think we can bet smallish for either value against lower pocket pairs with a diamond and to fold out oversuits. This is going to feel like he is being milked and, many times, villain has told himself he'll shut down if called on the flop.

If he bets big and bluffy at the flop, we just shove the turn in his face.

In the first instance, he's on the turn and he's not going to like that. His heart is beating and he's praying for whatever it is he wants to see. He's still got a workable stack but calling the next bet leaves him with a very short stack (so close) praying for a diamond.

In the second instance, he's going to need exactly two diamonds and TPTK to call. People play much tighter on the turn than they do on the flop.

I just prefer this to pushing the flop because we get more chips when successful and, I feel, it's more successful more often against a flop calling range than an open push.

Basically, I don't really want to fold my hand but I think this is the best way to fold hands that don't clearly crush us. If he's competent, he won't make mistakes on the flop. But if he's $3r competent, he'll make fairly large mistakes on later streets this close to FT.

[Nate.]

***RESULTS***

He folded.

--Nate

[kemystery]

[ QUOTE ]
***RESULTS***

He folded.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

to what? a push? c-bet? must have missed it in the thread