Monotone flop deep in the 3R

[Nate.]

NYTyler --

"HOH" is Harrington on Hold'em, a series of books often adhered to slavishly.

--Nate

[JohnFR]

HOH = Harrington on Hold'em

[degenrat]

hey tyler, you do that in every f-ing post. search for the acronym yourself.

man is that annoying.

I found a list in 10 seconds: in the FAQ at the top of this forum. in the faq is a link to a thread with many more. read that if you need the info. stop cluttering the forum.

25. What do the acronym/abbreviation mean?


Sats: Satellite
HoH: ‘Harrington on Hold ‘Em’
TPFAP: ‘Tournament Poker For Advanced Players’
TOP: ‘Theory of Poker’
ROI: Return on Investment
Mod: Moderator
LL: Last longer prop bets. Generally held for some Poker Stars events and initiated by one of the known MTT posters. (note: in other contexts, LL can also mean low-limit)
PP: Party Poker
PS: Poker Stars
TLB: Tournament Leader Board, generally referring to the one on Poker Stars
R+A: Rebuy/Add-on tournaments
ITM: In the money.
AI: All-in
HE: Hold ‘Em
PLO: Pot-Limit Omaha
O8: Omaha Eight or Better
WPT forum: 2+2s World poker Tour and other Televised Tournaments forum
PM: Private Message
WCOOP: World Championship of Online Poker on PokerStars.
Party 40K/Stars 45K/…: Refer to tournaments on these sites with guaranteed prize pools of the amount specified.
FPP: Frequent Player Points

[skier_5]

[ QUOTE ]
Skier --

9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] has 11 outs against us. Factor in tournament risk-aversion and I think we prefer to fold it out than commit a 2x-pot stack with it.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you feel we have to get it on fold on this flop? Why not check and see what happens rather than commited 2x the pot on a virtual bluff.

This isn't quite the same, but, do you shove 89cc here? AsKh, As4s? red 88?

I'm sure you could come up with a mathematical answer for the EV of shoving and I can see how it probably will be EV, but I'm not convinced it is the best play - especially since we have lots of showdown value.

One more thing, if we want to bluff with our hand, why not just bet normal? If we assign a % that he semibluffs us off the best hand (I'm not sure it is that high), we can compare it to an outright shove. Given that a shove is for 2x the pot, I think bet/folding > open shoving as well.

Also, what about considering the negatives of being called by a better hand (say KQ) when you shove vs. getting it in against a flush draw.

[Nate.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Skier --

9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] has 11 outs against us. Factor in tournament risk-aversion and I think we prefer to fold it out than commit a 2x-pot stack with it.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you feel we have to get it on fold on this flop? Why not check and see what happens rather than commited 2x the pot on a virtual bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because if we "check and see what happens," he will (probably) bet, and then there's no moving him off the hand, and we prefer his having folded.

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't quite the same, but, do you shove 89cc here? AsKh, As4s? red 88?

[/ QUOTE ]

This would take a long time to answer completely. But note that pushing AJ isn't the same as pushing with air, because we will be called sometimes, and AJ is in way better shape when that happens. Yet we still (very often) will have preferred that the hand we're getting it in against have folded.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure you could come up with a mathematical answer for the EV of shoving and I can see how it probably will be EV [sic], but I'm not convinced it is the best play - especially since we have lots of showdown value.

[/ QUOTE ]

That we have showdown value is precisely why it's bad to fold the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
One more thing, if we want to bluff with our hand,

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not bluffing.

[ QUOTE ]
why not just bet normal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the set of hands that fold to a big bet but do not fold to the normal bet consists mostly of hands we want out.

[ QUOTE ]
If we assign a % that he semibluffs us off the best hand (I'm not sure it is that high), we can compare it to an outright shove. Given that a shove is for 2x the pot, I think bet/folding > open shoving as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reread the above. We shouldn't be folding. Comparing bet-call to shove is much of the content of this thread.

--Nate

[Nate.]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, what about considering the negatives of being called by a better hand (say KQ) when you shove vs. getting it in against a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Skier --

Please read carefully. You want both KQ and most flush draws to fold. KQ probably isn't going anywhere, but some lone diamonds have to fold to a push but not a normal bet. So pushing is better (at least against {KQ, flush draws}).

--Nate

[NYTyler]

hahaha...im glad i pissed you off mother [censored]

[skier_5]

Well, we are having a good discussion, but this might be my last post since I have an essay to write, but I'll add some more thoughts.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Skier --

9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] has 11 outs against us. Factor in tournament risk-aversion and I think we prefer to fold it out than commit a 2x-pot stack with it.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you feel we have to get it on fold on this flop? Why not check and see what happens rather than commited 2x the pot on a virtual bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because if we "check and see what happens," he will (probably) bet, and then there's no moving him off the hand, and we prefer his having folded.

but we also lose the least while behind and gain the most when ahead, at the risk of losing the pot to a bad turn card. This is probably where tournament strategy comes in, but I think that with 100bb stacks, there is no real value in betting this flop.

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't quite the same, but, do you shove 89cc here? AsKh, As4s? red 88?

[/ QUOTE ]

This would take a long time to answer completely. But note that pushing AJ isn't the same as pushing with air, because we will be called sometimes, and AJ is in way better shape when that happens. Yet we still (very often) will have preferred that the hand we're getting it in against have folded.

I agree, though I think that A4 is pretty much the same when open shoving, but not when bet/calling or something.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure you could come up with a mathematical answer for the EV of shoving and I can see how it probably will be EV [sic], but I'm not convinced it is the best play - especially since we have lots of showdown value.

[/ QUOTE ]

That we have showdown value is precisely why it's bad to fold the hand.

We're not in a position where we have to bet to win the pot, our hand could very likely be best. If I could choose to check this down, I probably would.

[ QUOTE ]
One more thing, if we want to bluff with our hand,

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not bluffing.

very rarely: we fold out a better hand or get called by a worse hand. What exactly is our shove doing other than folding out hands with 30%+ equity in the pot that are too weak to call a shove and getting it in with <30% equity when behind?

[ QUOTE ]
why not just bet normal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the set of hands that fold to a big bet but do not fold to the normal bet consists mostly of hands we want out.

im not convinced red nines call a flop bet.

[ QUOTE ]
If we assign a % that he semibluffs us off the best hand (I'm not sure it is that high), we can compare it to an outright shove. Given that a shove is for 2x the pot, I think bet/folding > open shoving as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reread the above. We shouldn't be folding. Comparing bet-call to shove is much of the content of this thread.

Couple examples:

Board: Qd Jd 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 21.566% 19.29% 02.27% 191 22.50 { AcJc }
Hand 1: 78.434% 76.16% 02.27% 754 22.50 { KhQh }

Board: Qd Jd 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.162% 56.16% 00.00% 556 0.00 { AcJc }
Hand 1: 43.838% 43.84% 00.00% 434 0.00 { 9d9h }

Obviously we want those 9s or a similar hand to fold, but look how much we give up when we are called by a better hand (and the pot is much bigger). I really think that the times he has a hand with similar equity to the 9s and similar equity to KQ are pretty equal and then there are the times he folds no matter what.

Effectively, we are playing a huge pot when way behind and playing a small pot when way ahead or slightly ahead. Seems pretty backwards.



--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nate.]

Skier --

Of course we don't want to get money in bad. Of course this hand plays differently with 100 big blinds. Of course we don't want to be called, and of course we'll sometimes be in bad shape when we're called. None of this explains why another line is better than a shove.

--Nate

[0evg0]

i'm pretty sure the pot is too small for an open shove here. if you had raised 3-4xbb though i think i like it. as is, effective is too deep. also, if we were left with more than 10xbb after losing i like it more then too