Calldown?

[danzasmack]

i c/r the flop and c/c down from there no joke.

people fold to this turn bet or they raise it. Sometimes they bet QJ though.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is what I think. If we know exactly what to do if raised on the turn, then check/raising the flop is fine. If we dont know what to do if raised on the turn then I'm not check/raising the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meaning you want to know that he bluffing frequency is either high enough to easily justify a calldown, or low enough that a fold is safe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
i c/r the flop and c/c down from there no joke.

people fold to this turn bet or they raise it. Sometimes they bet QJ though.

[/ QUOTE ]

danza,

that sorta defeats the purpose as a good player will now check behind. i guess he already paid an extra bet calling your flop c/r.... could be an interesting idea.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]


Exactly

[/ QUOTE ]

ILP,

What is your line then when you lack such a specific read but know he is 30/20 from a reliable sample size HUD stat?

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Exactly

[/ QUOTE ]

ILP,

What is your line then when you lack such a specific read but know he is 30/20 from a reliable sample size HUD stat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a specific read, I'd probably check/call down but I'd hate my hand if he bets the river.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

Without a specific read, I'd probably check/call down but I'd hate my hand if he bets the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

c/calldown from flop i assume you mean?

okay, anyway that was my instinct too. this post is a bit of a devil's advocate post, since it's actually a hand taken from dean's 30 video on cardrunner's. and in his narration he makes it sound like this flop is a pretty standard c/r, and does not mention any specific read to back it up. so i was sorta checking up to see if anyone would suggest c/calldown here.

I think dean's line is interesting and I also think that c/r and bet/calldown cannot be much worse, and may in fact be better, than c/calldown from the flop. but maybe c/r, bet/fold is even better. another thing to note is that a good player with an A should prolly wait till the river to raise for this reason.

danza's line is interesting to think about as well.

[Enon]

My standard line is to just c/c flop because many people are apt to bet almost anything on turn since so many people in these mid limit 6 max games peel super light. Pot is small and I'd rather opponent keep bluffing than fold a 6 outer.

Against others like toomuchaction from ftp (major lag, raises turn for free showdowns constantly) I happily checkraise flop and call down if raised on turn. As usual, depends on my image and recent history.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather opponent keep bluffing than fold a 6 outer.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again, Dean's comment in the video is that since the guy is reasonable he will have to put us on *something* decent when we just peel the flop, and will therefore be afraid to bet the turn unless he's ahead of us. Instead, he'll take a freecard and that is bad since our hand is so vulnerable.

Dean is assuming a certain type of villain in making this comment (in particular, the type who won't bluff the turn), but I guess that he 1) had that read, or 2) felt that the read was justified by villain's stats or 3) felt that the read is justified against a typical 30 online villain.

[jstill]

the arguments for cr'ing definitely seem legit

fwiw Id always cr 55 here (since almost any hand has 10 outs against us so more reason to want to fold them out asap) and cr'ing the 7 does seem preferable if he ll insta fold all those six outters but never bet them for us on the turn.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
Dean's comment in the video is that since the guy is reasonable he will have to put us on *something* decent when we just peel the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is normally true against someone that got stats on us and play 30/20. Maybe he will bet again if we got a very low WTSD%.

I think a checkcall and a checkraise on flop sends about the same message and since I think we are ahead often enough we should checkraise flop. But since I think we will get a fold from some of his hopeless hands we are now coming in on turn having narrowed down his range a bit, which really isnt that nice if we are thinking about betting again.

So turn is tricky to play. I dont like betfold since a turnraise will not be aces that often. But I dont like checkcall either since we will not call with a better hand often enough, instead giving him a freecard when we are ahead.

This is so tricky to play since he got position and we have to give our hand away on flop.