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  #31  
Old 10-09-2007, 10:17 AM
Mendacious Mendacious is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Planet Lovetron
Posts: 1,010
Default Re: Ratholing NL08.

Essentially, this is coin-flipping with some occaissional fold equity.

The pros: 1) you can make money quickly
2) you can sit with players that are MUCh better than you and still have a chance.
3) you pick up some higher stake antes on a lower stakes buy-in

CONS:
1) You can lose money really quickly
2) You aren't playing poker
3) If you are good, you are giving up the advantages of a large stack and winning big.
4) When people catch on you'll wind up getting the worst of it more often when you shove, AND picking up fewer antes.
5) Sitting out of good games or places where a big stack would be advantageous is hugely -EV.
6) People will rag you incessantly.
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  #32  
Old 10-09-2007, 11:00 AM
franknagaijr franknagaijr is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Wasting time on facebook
Posts: 618
Default Re: Ratholing NL08.

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, this is coin-flipping with some occaissional fold equity.

The pros: 1) you can make money quickly
2) you can sit with players that are MUCh better than you and still have a chance.
3) you pick up some higher stake antes on a lower stakes buy-in

CONS:
1) You can lose money really quickly
2) You aren't playing poker
3) If you are good, you are giving up the advantages of a large stack and winning big.
4) When people catch on you'll wind up getting the worst of it more often when you shove, AND picking up fewer antes.
5) Sitting out of good games or places where a big stack would be advantageous is hugely -EV.
6) People will rag you incessantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFDAS!

(Buzz - quoted for deserving a sticky)
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  #33  
Old 10-09-2007, 01:05 PM
Shabamabam Shabamabam is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 567
Default Re: Ratholing NL08.

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, this is coin-flipping with some occaissional fold equity.

The pros: 1) you can make money quickly
2) you can sit with players that are MUCh better than you and still have a chance.
3) you pick up some higher stake antes on a lower stakes buy-in

CONS:
1) You can lose money really quickly
2) You aren't playing poker
3) If you are good, you are giving up the advantages of a large stack and winning big.
4) When people catch on you'll wind up getting the worst of it more often when you shove, AND picking up fewer antes.
5) Sitting out of good games or places where a big stack would be advantageous is hugely -EV.
6) People will rag you incessantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pros:
1 - You can make quick money in any game. If you're looking for a quick +3bb to round off a number (like I know a lot of people do), this is probably the easiest way to do it.

2 - Good players are usually good players that play big stack poker. I don't think many know how to adjust to shortstackers at this point of time.

3 - Dead money is more important than fold equity imo. 5 limpers and i'm shoving almost any 4.

Cons

1 - Yup. Very tilt inducing as well.

2 - I disagree. Surely you can't say the same thing about the pros that play 500/1000 with 30bb cap?

3 - I'm iffy on this one. I definitely do think that you get more action as a shortstack and even more so if you develop a big stack after being a shortstack.

4 - In my experiences, people still have no clue how to adjust properly via range vs. range method. If they adjust, i think it's easier for the shortstack to adjust again and get paid on premium hands.

5 - Just because you buyin for a shortstack doesn't mean you don't have the option of buying in full if you think it's that great of a game. Often times I will double up and then reload to the max because I think that 100BB's > 40bb's at that game.

6 - Meh. I've given up on 'Poker Ethics'. I no longer care about hit and runs (as long as you don't give your word to commit) whether it's from my opponent or if it's myself. I've received many death threats already, and most of them just make me laugh.
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  #34  
Old 10-09-2007, 02:10 PM
davebreal davebreal is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: betting scare cards
Posts: 1,683
Default Re: Ratholing NL08.

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, this is coin-flipping with some occaissional fold equity.

The pros: 1) you can make money quickly
2) you can sit with players that are MUCh better than you and still have a chance.
3) you pick up some higher stake antes on a lower stakes buy-in

CONS:
1) You can lose money really quickly
2) You aren't playing poker
3) If you are good, you are giving up the advantages of a large stack and winning big.
4) When people catch on you'll wind up getting the worst of it more often when you shove, AND picking up fewer antes.
5) Sitting out of good games or places where a big stack would be advantageous is hugely -EV.
6) People will rag you incessantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

good post. my spin on the big NLO8 games:

I much prefer pot-limit, but I think the fact that the $5/$10 NLO8 game fills in regularly is good for the O8 world overall. It also attracts the most reckless gamblers I've ever seen. An interesting note is that when Idiot29 sits down, the table has a completely different dynamic. He is good at putting others at tilt, but I'm pretty sure he's on life tilt anyways.

I can only imagine how many gamblers have gone broke from this game already, and how many will go broke in the future. I've seen so many unknown players drop $5K in a night that I have to wonder where the money is coming from.
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  #35  
Old 10-09-2007, 03:10 PM
ThE_rEaL_gUnIt ThE_rEaL_gUnIt is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: balla status
Posts: 61
Default Re: Ratholing NL08.

all of this talk is making me want to put $ onto fulltilt.........dammmit!!
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  #36  
Old 10-09-2007, 03:34 PM
dougmanct dougmanct is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 14
Default Re: Ratholing NL08.

Been lurking this thread, guess it's long overdue for me to chime in.

FWIW, and this is just my perspective, the ol' open-shove with a strong AAxx hand play in NLO8 has really dried up, a LOT, over the last several months.

It is quite clear to me that the overwhelming majority of NLO8 players know the play, know the exact range the play is made on, and know WHO make the play, so unless you have a really good table selection with a clear newbie who is maniacal/clueless, the play really only collects some dead blinds and more often than not when you get called it's a much tighter race than you want it to be, a lot more 52-48s than 60-40s as it were.

I think the main issue I have with NLO8 is that the core playership has learned the ropes; in the absence of any books, videos, or really any training literature on the game in existance, the player base has self-taught and learned to avoid the basic mistakes and pitfalls of the game. As a result, the only real +EV element of NLO8 is in table selection/identifying newbies. Sitting with regulars that understand the game essentially brings it down to who flops monsters better and avoids being outdrawn better.

Will I still play? Sure, but I do know that it's a much tougher game today than it was a year ago, and with a much slower influx of dead money.
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  #37  
Old 10-09-2007, 04:42 PM
rando rando is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 245
Default Re: Ratholing NL08.

Seems that in the last few months there are more curious onlookers who sit down at NLO8 tables at the 100 max and 50 max tables. I think there are enough players who are finally tiring of the 2-card square dancing that used to be such a thrill ride, and are now looking for the next big thing, call it NLO8's crystal meth to NLHE's pill popping. And like with those drugs the new NLO8er will become a lifer or come off the rails much faster. I've seen triple the number of completely clueless NLO8 players sitting down at tables with 3-5 regulars who now show their iron man chips next to their avatar getting run down like some victim of a gang-war drive by. I wasn't playing these games regularly long ago so I can't draw a fully informed comparison, but it isn't a dry game, maybe you just need a keener eye to spot the dead money.

I also think there are enough different styles that multi-table programmed play is bordering on being fairly exploitable (at least 200 max and below). Just exploit newbies and lower stakes players with your skill, and exploit the discipline of higher stakes multi-tablers with well-timed moves and you can double your win rate.

It seems to me that on FTP anyway, the choice games fluctuate wildly and unpredictably back and forth between NLO8 and PLO8, sometimes session to session or day to day, sometimes week to week. More than ever (keener eye) table selection is key. Some tables' stats look oh-so appealing, but the cast of characters may not be right, or you sit down in the wrong spot, or your chi is just tuned to PL when you're playing NL and you have to HAVE to know how and when to switch formats.

Perhaps the biggest thing to ensuring continued NLO8 success and exploitability is the willingness to start a new table and subject oneself to the inevitable hit and run or ratholer until a few people sit down (ratholers will help the table stats so you don't wait long). I frequently start out losing a half stack during my biggest up sessions, primarily due to this factor. But eventually your notes catch up with the prime offenders and you take them easily. scsmall I'm talking to you.
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