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  #61  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:12 PM
Subfallen Subfallen is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
Another question for you. Are people with biological defects in their eye incapable of discovering "actually meaningful" truth, or claims, whatever?

How do we KNOW that your, or my, or anyone else's eyeball works so perfectly that it is the ultimate standard for knowledge? It's not because of an a priori assumption is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sensory impact on consciousness, visual or otherwise. But the whole point is that, NO, actual meaning doesn't require any a priori assumption because it derives from existential sources.
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  #62  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:16 PM
Matt R. Matt R. is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

Are you really basing your whole argument on a quote by Einstein? The model's "ACTUAL MEANING" is not determined by observable predictions. Its meaning IN RELATION TO PHYSICS (observable pheneomena) is determined by the observations. The equation itself CAN STILL HAVE ACTUAL MEANING. This is what mathematical definitions are for. Wow, how can an entire subject (of which nearly all of the hard sciences are based on) be based on concepts that are only SUBJECTIVELY MEANINGFUL??

"Actual meaning requires a falsifiable impact on consciousness."

One does not have to observe something for it to be falsifiable. You can think without your eyeball.
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  #63  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:20 PM
Matt R. Matt R. is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
Sensory impact on consciousness, visual or otherwise. But the whole point is that, NO, actual meaning doesn't require any a priori assumption because it derives from existential sources.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which eyeball are we deriving ALL of our knowledge from? What if two eyeballs disagree? If we choose a colorblind individual as our ultimate standard, does color cease to exist? If you say we should choose someone else as our ultimate, perfect sensory information integrator (from which all our knowledge is derived), how do you go about choosing them? Sensory information is dependent on the evolution of our nervous system. This is partly dependent on random mutations. In other words, everyone experiences things differently. How do we pick the "right" sensory experience?
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  #64  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:21 PM
Subfallen Subfallen is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
Are you really basing your whole argument on a quote by Einstein? The model's "ACTUAL MEANING" is not determined by observable predictions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, what? Yes, actually it is.

[ QUOTE ]
Its meaning IN RELATION TO PHYSICS (observable pheneomena) is determined by the observations. The equation itself CAN STILL HAVE ACTUAL MEANING.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that's only subjective (definitional) meaning. If there is no reference to reality then the meaning is only subjective.

[ QUOTE ]
This is what mathematical definitions are for. Wow, how can an entire subject (of which nearly all of the hard sciences are based on) be based on concepts that are only SUBJECTIVELY MEANINGFUL??

[/ QUOTE ]

Models are actually meaningful in that they are falsifiable and predictive. Math itself is only subjectively meaningful.

[ QUOTE ]
One does not have to observe something for it to be falsifiable. You can think without your eyeball.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, based on prior observation and sensory experience. It is pretty obvious that if you were completely deprived of sensory input from birth, you would not have any actually meaningful thoughts. (Or, probably, any consciousness at all.)
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  #65  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:23 PM
tpir tpir is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

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Oh, how cute. You really think mathematics is only "subjectively meaningful"? You really aren't going to back down from that? I'm sorry, but if you actually hold this position, I'm not sure I can debate past that. It is really about as "obviously wrong", from my perspective, as you can get. Math is the FOUNDATION for the hard sciences. How on Earth is your eyeball superior to math in finding "real truth"?

So, what it is about your eyeball that magically grants you priveleged metaphysical status?

[/ QUOTE ]
This thread is turning into a huge leveling of sorts. Posts like this are what makes me care about religion so much. i.e. it takes religion to make someone as confident as you are about things you clearly have no knowledge of whatsoever.
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  #66  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:24 PM
Subfallen Subfallen is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sensory impact on consciousness, visual or otherwise. But the whole point is that, NO, actual meaning doesn't require any a priori assumption because it derives from existential sources.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which eyeball are we deriving ALL of our knowledge from? What if two eyeballs disagree? If we choose a colorblind individual as our ultimate standard, does color cease to exist? If you say we should choose someone else as our ultimate, perfect sensory information integrator (from which all our knowledge is derived), how do you go about choosing them? Sensory information is dependent on the evolution of our nervous system. This is partly dependent on random mutations. In other words, everyone experiences things differently. How do we pick the "right" sensory experience?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would we assume there's any "right" experiential standard? Or a constant one? I never said anything there was anything "absolute" about any sort of meaning.

However, given the universal limitations of human conscious experience, some things are necessarily beyond possible experience. Things like supra-temporality. Or omnipresence.
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  #67  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:29 PM
Matt R. Matt R. is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

Well, OK. You are basically just re-asserting stuff that I disagree with.

"It is pretty obvious that if you were completely deprived of sensory input from birth, you would not have any actually meaningful thoughts."

I don't think this is obviously true at all.

I don't understand how the position that "all knowledge is derived from sensory input" requires NO a priori assumptions. To me, it seems clear that the position itself is an a priori claim. There is nothing in the environment which states "what you see here? yeah, it's definitely absolute truth". It seems, to me, that we must assume our sensory information is accurate.

I must go for the time being. I also think we are arguing in circles, and I honestly don't understand why you think your position requires no a priori assumptions. I will try to get back with you later.
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  #68  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:30 PM
Subfallen Subfallen is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

Well start a new thread at some point then.
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  #69  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:30 PM
Matt R. Matt R. is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, how cute. You really think mathematics is only "subjectively meaningful"? You really aren't going to back down from that? I'm sorry, but if you actually hold this position, I'm not sure I can debate past that. It is really about as "obviously wrong", from my perspective, as you can get. Math is the FOUNDATION for the hard sciences. How on Earth is your eyeball superior to math in finding "real truth"?

So, what it is about your eyeball that magically grants you priveleged metaphysical status?

[/ QUOTE ]
This thread is turning into a huge leveling of sorts. Posts like this are what makes me care about religion so much. i.e. it takes religion to make someone as confident as you are about things you clearly have no knowledge of whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

tpir,
What, exactly, am I claiming knowledge of?

Please be explicit in what you believe I am claiming knowledge of, and any evidence that I have posted that leads you to this conclusion.
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  #70  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:37 PM
tpir tpir is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
tpir,
What, exactly, am I claiming knowledge of?

Please be explicit in what you believe I am claiming knowledge of, and any evidence that I have posted that leads you to this conclusion.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I am not getting involved in your semantic games. The posts in this thread and the one I quoted have enough representative content for fair-minded people to see. i.e. your attitude of "well i refuse to back down on this because FROM MY PERSPECTIVE it makes perfect sense."

If you really want an example though... you appear to be claiming knowledge about math, science and the types of truth statements they make, and missing the point very badly. I will let Subfallen elaborate.
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