AP thread 872.6 - Statement ITT

[bronx bomber]

Who posts first, Greg Raymer in defense of the PPA or Mark Seif in defense of his reputation?

[LuckyMux]

Well done, 2+2 guys. Took me eight hours to read it all, but you just made true poker history.

Have patience: Absolute will not survive this and deservedly so. The poker press and word-of-mouth will see to that.

Yet, without the smoking gun hand history it would have been denied and the scam would still be going on. For all we know, it still is - and, of course, the horrible implication is that it could be going on at any other poker site too.

On the back of the WCOOP scandal and various other chip dumping/collusion/multi-accounting accusations, this is beyond huge for the future of online poker.

This will be the subject of emergency board meetings at every other poker vendor, you can be certain of it. Absolute has just cost them millions at best. It's on MSNBC, ffs!

(Perhaps it's time to seriously consider the one rule change that will beat the cheats once and for all. It changes the game, but maybe it's the only way to save it now? At the end of every hand, all hole cards must be revealed.)

[N 82 50 24]

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a simple EV calculation says to keep playing on AP after this

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"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."

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We discussed that exact sort of example in my Torts class in law school. Very interesting stuff.

[TheRedRocket]

I sent AP this email and uninstalled their software. Honestly I don't play enough or for high enough stakes that they will care but its the only thing I can do. I hope everyone else follows suit.

Dear Absolute Poker.

Please close my account immediately and permanently. I am doing this in response to your blatant and repeated lying in regards to the fraud against players that Absolute poker was involved in. I in no way want to be associated as a customer of your site any longer.

[PartyGirlUK]

btw does anyone find it fishy that someone dumb enough to cheat so transparently, use his own account(s), use the same screennames as his logins here, use AP ips for his cheating, cover up so pathetically etc. was able to mastermind hacking into some sophisticated security system and process all these cashouts with no help from anyone else??

[Synergistic Explosions]

So I gather from all this that a programmer in bedded malware on our computer after an AP update that allowed him to see our hole cards, and then developed his own program to utilize this information in real time.

I suppose there's no way to stop this kind of thing if the wrong people desire to do it. Players just got lucky that they were sloppy with their play and a support guy mistakenly sent out private information about the tournament.

I suppose this could happen at any site we play on. With all the money involved it probably has happened before. Since it's now proven that players won't stop playing at a site with security flaws and a history of players getting cheated by them, there really is no reason for sites to worry about these sorts of problems.

It's wonderful to finally know for certain that nothing can bring a site down. Our balances should remain safe from any risk of a massive cash out and a liquidity problem to follow. It's obvious that will never happen to any site now. General apathy and a lack of knowledge makes that impossible.

[h11]

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Why do people doubt the integrity of the Kahwanake? Hundreds of years ago the Kahnawake signed a document with the French surrounding them conceding that they are an independent nation. As such they permit people wtithin their borders to run gambling businesses. If that alone makes them dishonest, then so is the USA. Is there Any REAL reason to doubt their integrity, other than a disagreement with Canada about that? And after hundreds of years, it's not odd their Chief would be named Norton, anymore than a Mr Obama becoming President of the USA would be odd. Right?



There is no reason to doubt the Kahnawake, other than the way their wholly owned subsidary AP has lied. Repeatedly. And how they gave a gambling license to a casino they own and control. Other than that, nothing shady going on!

The Kahnawake don't own AP, their former Chief does. He has not been part of the government of the tribe since 2004. If Mr Clinton were to buy a casino in Las Vegas, would that mean that the USA could not regulate it? So I don't think his ownership is proof that the Kahwanake are dishonest. They may be dishonest - but then you may be dishonest also. I prefer to wait for evidence before I call someone dishonest. As to Mr Norton's firm AP cheating and lying proving the owner is dishonest - isn't the biggest victim Norton? He has a firm worth more than a quarter billion dollars - before this event. How much is it worth now? I bet he has lost fifty million bucks, easily. Does having an employee of yours destroy your firm mean you are dishonest?

[shaniac]

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a simple EV calculation says to keep playing on AP after this

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"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."

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I was reminded of this, too.

[N 82 50 24]

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This BS statement says, "Although we are in the process of attempting to recover all the winnings of this consultant, any unrecovered losses of affected players will be paid by Absolute Poker so that all affected persons will be made whole."

I'm not sure exactly what "made whole" means, but if it means fairly compensated I find this very unlikely unless AP gives back all of the monies of everyone who entered a tournament or sat in a cash game with a cheating player. Moving players up one spot in the standings doesn't account for all of the impact that a cheating player had on the game. Cheaters affected how many of the hands were played out, and cheaters may have crippled or knocked out players early in tournaments keeping people who may have made money out.

The only way AP can make sure that "all affected persons will be made whole" is if they allow all (non-cheating) players to keep their winnings and ALSO refund the buy-ins of every other player. In addition, AP would need to pay all players an hourly rate for time spent playing with cheaters and add interest on everything. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

Also, not that it matters or comes as a surprise, but I'm pretty sure that AP cheats/ed affiliates too.

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There's no way to EVER say that AP was 100% fair in paying people back unless they're forced to pay back WAAAAY more than was cheated. As I understand it, they're already going to be paying back significantly more than actually ended up in the cheating accounts.

So let's say that $1 mil ended up in the cheating accounts. How should that be distributed? No one really knows. The best thing AP can do with regards to paying people back is multiply that $1 mil by some decent factor, look through hand histories and pay people back as best as they can determine.

Any and all "refund" solutions can and will be criticized.

[ikestoys]

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btw does anyone find it fishy that someone dumb enough to cheat so transparently, use his own account(s), use the same screennames as his logins here, use AP ips for his cheating, cover up so pathetically etc. was able to mastermind hacking into some sophisticated security system and process all these cashouts with no help from anyone else??

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So, so so many smart people are terrible at poker