Four Different Ways To Reject Jesus

[David Sklansky]

It seems to me that there are actually four different categories of what some might call "rejecting Jesus". And that it would be useful when discussing non believers, to know which category they are in.

1. The Adam type category. Someone who has no doubt about God's existence and power but wants to defy it. Adam was about God. But I am sure there are also examples more recently, of people who defied what they believed to be a divine Jesus.

2. The Jewish type category. Someone who believes in God, has no wish to defy him, but simply thinks the Jesus story is untrue. Not because he wants it to be untrue. He agrees with most of his teachings. But he also thinks that God is at least a bit miffed at those who fell for the ressurection story and he doesn't want to be one of them.

3. The genial scientist type category. This fellow also has no problem with most of the things the bible claims God desires, and would be perfectly pleased to discover that God, with or without Jesus exists. In spite of the probability/logic/science/magician evidence against it. Included in this category are the less scientifically oriented who actually think there is a decent chance that God/Jesus exists but consider it less than even money. (Those people are presently screwed real bad but I'm going to try to help them in another thread.) Another subcategory are those people who have no problem with God but think their high falootin philosophical arguments force them to disbelieve in him. (A classic case of being probably right, but for the wrong reason.)

4. The 1-3 combination type. These people hate God/Jesus similar to type One. And talk about why belief in him is deleterious even if he existed. But they also claim a scientific and/or philosophical reason to disbelieve. Can you spell "ulterior motive"? Another name for these people is "cannon fodder for Not Ready". They throw him fastballs that he hits out of the park. And allow him to ignore the much tougher problem of categories two and three above.

[jason1990]

What about people who believe in a god other than the god of the old testament (and, of course, do not believe that Jesus is the son of their god). Are they in category 2, or some other category?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Another subcategory are those people who have no problem with God but think their high falootin philosophical arguments force them to disbelieve in him. (A classic case of being probably right, but for the wrong reason.)

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're going to include empty sets I'm sure you can do better than that

How about the important sub-catagory who believe the world was a result of arkleseizure sneezing

or

that don't believe anything exists so J certainly didn't.

chez

[Magic_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
3. The genial scientist type category. This fellow also has no problem with most of the things the bible claims God desires, and would be perfectly pleased to discover that God, with or without Jesus exists. In spite of the probability/logic/science/magician evidence against it. Included in this category are the less scientifically oriented who actually think there is a decent chance that God/Jesus exists but consider it less than even money. (Those people are presently screwed real bad but I'm going to try to help them in another thread.) Another subcategory are those people who have no problem with God but think their high falootin philosophical arguments force them to disbelieve in him. (A classic case of being probably right, but for the wrong reason.)


[/ QUOTE ]

We've had discussions and polls about this before. A huge number of atheists WANT a god to exist (in contrast with most moderate-to-hardcore Christians' claims). Most of them don't want the God Of The Bible to exist, but many would gladly accept some sort of personal god or watchmaker god. In fact, I'd say it's arguably pretty silly to not want a god of some kind to exist. Does anyone actually desire god's non-existence??

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
The 1-3 combination type. These people hate God/Jesus similar to type One. And talk about why belief in him is deleterious even if he existed. But they also claim a scientific and/or philosophical reason to disbelieve. Can you spell "ulterior motive"?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no reason why this has to involve an ulterior motive. I think, for instance, that if the usual Christian conception of hell is accurate, the Christian God ought to be rejected as an evil monster. I also think that belief in the Christian God is irrational and idiotic. Those two beliefs are distinct, and there is no good reason to reject my arguments if I occasionally conflate the two.

On various sub-debates the same type of conflation can arise. For instance, I think that belief in the resurrection is foolish due to the lack of any good evidence for it occurring. I also think that there is quite good evidence that the resurrection story was invented quite some time after the death of Jesus. It shouldn't be impossible for me to simultaneously defend both those beliefs.

[KreellKeiser]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3. The genial scientist type category. This fellow also has no problem with most of the things the bible claims God desires, and would be perfectly pleased to discover that God, with or without Jesus exists. In spite of the probability/logic/science/magician evidence against it. Included in this category are the less scientifically oriented who actually think there is a decent chance that God/Jesus exists but consider it less than even money. (Those people are presently screwed real bad but I'm going to try to help them in another thread.) Another subcategory are those people who have no problem with God but think their high falootin philosophical arguments force them to disbelieve in him. (A classic case of being probably right, but for the wrong reason.)


[/ QUOTE ]

We've had discussions and polls about this before. A huge number of atheists WANT a god to exist (in contrast with most moderate-to-hardcore Christians' claims). Most of them don't want the God Of The Bible to exist, but many would gladly accept some sort of personal god or watchmaker god. In fact, I'd say it's arguably pretty silly to not want a god of some kind to exist. Does anyone actually desire god's non-existence??

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I'm an athiest and I think it'd be great if there was a God and a life after death. The main reason is simply that life will go on. Right now, as far as I belief, once I die, that's it... nothing. Which kind of sucks. I just see no evidence for believing otherwise.

[Ben K]

I guess I'm in number 3. I'm not in the category of less scientifically orientated.. nor am I in the category of high falootin philosophy forcing me to do anything.

I think it's fair to say though, that when I first started with considering the whole god question, it was in the context of reading the god delusion and that put me instantly in the high falootin section but I'm a git to anyone who tries to make me believe anything and bought the book length response to the god delusion by McGrath. That pulled me back into the genial athiest camp.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">4. The 1-3 combination type. These people hate God/Jesus similar to type One. And talk about why belief in him is deleterious even if he existed. But they also claim a scientific and/or philosophical reason to disbelieve. Can you spell "ulterior motive"? Another name for these people is "cannon fodder for Not Ready". They throw him fastballs that he hits out of the park. And allow him to ignore the much tougher problem of categories two and three above.
</font>

I think you incorrectly make the assumption that the God of the bible (if He exists), is a pleasant God that all would be happy with. However, not all people feel this way, and they make strong arguments that the reverse is true. I won't cite all the examples of genocide, baby killing, trickery, etc., but it's not hard to find them running rampant throughout the OT.

My personal view is that it wouldn't matter what God's idea of morality is. If He exists, then it only makes sense to get with the program. It's His ball so to speak and He can do what He wants with it.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]


that don't believe anything exists so J certainly didn't.



[/ QUOTE ]

thats me.

I subscribe to the theory that nothing really exists - that we are all one conciousness experiencing itself subjectively - life is just a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves.

That for lack of a better easy to understand metaphor - we are all living in "the Matrix" (you think that's air you're breathing?) and that eventually we will wake up and return to our real life non corporeal existance - and that probably there are different levels of dreaming so some people die(wake up) and then start a different human dream some start the heaven dream - others start the hell dream and so on.

I'm still not sure whether that makes me an atheist or something else. And I'm definitely unsure as to which Jesus rejection category I fit into.

[hellbender]

Are you sure any philosophical arguments purport to disprove the Christian God? I'm familiar with a number that argue against an omnibenevolent God, but that hardly describes the God of Christianity/Jesus.