Kind of a Crazy PLO Tourney Hand

[VespaRally]

It’s early in an $11 Omaha Hi MTT on PS. No specific reads on any of the players, but my general read is that everyone is playing nearly any four cards and there is a lot of limping pre with very little raising. After the flop, average action.

A friend was watching and he claimed my turn play was suicide, but given that I think MP2 is weak (maybe semi-bluffing with a pair+straight or two clubs), and that the button probably has a flush draw, I think the two-pair on the turn was just enough for me to move.

Blinds 25/50
9-Handed

MP1 – 1220
MP2 – 2155
BUTTON - 3035
SB – 2050
BB (HERO) – 1495

The listed players limp to me and I check in the BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

The pot contains $250, 5-way.

The flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].


It’s checked to MP2 who bets 150, the button calls, and I call.

The pot now contains $700, 3-way.

The turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img](6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]).

I check, MP2 bets 350, Button calls 350, I shove for 1295.

MP2 folds. Button calls getting 2695-to-945, or ~ 3-to-1.

[wazz]

This is horrible.

3.6-1 on flop..... Unraised pot..... You should stay out of this pot on the flop because of

1) bad reverse implied odds..... if you hit your hand on the turn you can still easily get outdrawn on the river.

2) no information on holdings of opponents, so there's only 6 outs you should be planning taking any further. You don't want to be going to the felt with just trip 2s, fwiw.

3) Bad absolute position > best relative position, especially on the flop and where FE in these donkaments is low.

Turn is horrendous. Check-shove should be saved for hands like top set + NFD here, where you can reasonably expect both to call. You want 2 folds here and your play gets one at best. A lot of the time you are getting called here by any two pair, any pair/overpair plus flush draw, and obv sets and straights. If you do get your money in ahead here, it is rarely anything other than marginally.

[wazz]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post8245216 this is a hand to be checkshoving.

[guilt_trip]

Yeah this is awful man, really awful. I think Wazz said it all really

[VespaRally]

Thanks for the response. I know it’s not good Omaha practice to draw to a doublegutter on a twoflush board (or EVER, really w/o anything else), but when you are playing against weak opponents who will call ALL THE WAY to hit the flush, or will payoff with two small pair, it’s hard to refrain oneself.

[ QUOTE ]
This is horrible.

3.6-1 on flop..... Unraised pot..... You should stay out of this pot on the flop because of

1) bad reverse implied odds..... if you hit your hand on the turn you can still easily get outdrawn on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, if I hit my straight on the turn, my opponents will pay me off if I check-shove or bet pot. Since they will do this, I think closing the action here is not a bad play and since they will make bad calls on the turn, I get good implied odds. Either the 4 or the 8 gives me the nuts. Also, I think it’s obvious that the button is on the club draw and the bettor has very little, possibly another club draw, lessening the chances they will hit.

I think the main flaw in my play is that I might be tied on the turn with no serious redraws – with a club redraw present. THIS, I think, is the weakest part of the play.

[ QUOTE ]
2) no information on holdings of opponents, so there's only 6 outs you should be planning taking any further. You don't want to be going to the felt with just trip 2s, fwiw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I have a lot of info on my opponents hands. One of em made a weak little bet on a semi-drawheavy board, and when he was called in two spots, he made another weak bet on the turn when the 6 hit, completing a straight. Obviously the guy has very little otherwise he would be betting more to protect his hand. Once the button JUST smooth-calls, obviously it’s very likely he has the club draw, and we can RULE OUT the possibility of him having the straight. If they BOTH have flush draws, and even if one of them has a pair+flushdraw or flushdraw+gutshot, I’m anywhere from 44%-to-50% to win the hand on the turn. If you combine that with any little FE I might have (which, admittedly is VERY low in an $11 MTT – but, in this hand, I have more FE than usual, AND more dead money in the pot if I can get it heads-up) my play becomes +EV in a hurry.

Trip 2s is a fine hand if they are willing to call PSBs with a bare flush draw on 4th. Against two flush draws and a higher straight draw, I’m an 80% favorite. Obviously I won’t be chomping at the bit to get my money in with such a weak, vulnerable hand, but if someone is making dark-tunnel bluffs on the turn and another player is just CALLING, I would definitely like my hand.

[ QUOTE ]
3) Bad absolute position > best relative position, especially on the flop and where FE in these donkaments is low.

[/ QUOTE ]

I close the action on the flop and I have the caller squeezed in between myself and the weak leader. If I hit, I can check-raise or lead out on the turn. It’s also not like I’m going to have any guessing games on the turn, either I hit my 4 or 8 or I muck.

What happened was I hit a 6 and used my relative position to read their hands. I concluded they were weak so I figured I had a strong enough two-way hand and FE to jam it in and PRAY.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is horrendous. Check-shove should be saved for hands like top set + NFD here, where you can reasonably expect both to call. You want 2 folds here and your play gets one at best. A lot of the time you are getting called here by any two pair, any pair/overpair plus flush draw, and obv sets and straights. If you do get your money in ahead here, it is rarely anything other than marginally.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had TOP SET+NFD the pot would have already been jammed in on the flop. The pot was kept small for a reason, probably because they have weak hands. Possibly only draws or bluffs. Granted, even if they DO have bluffs or draws, my hand strength ranges from WORTHLESS-to-SMALL FAVORITE. But, my read was more small favorite/small dog territory.

Also, I think I can put even a very loose opponent in a tough spot here with a check-raise if all they have is a pair+straightdraw, pair+flushdraw, or overpair+flushdraw. You realize that if does have something like Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I’m a solid 60% favorite. I know it’s not overwhelming equity, but +EV nonetheless. If he has the top 2 and a FD, then I’m [censored], but not dead.

FWIW - I CR turn and got called by the NFD. A Queen hit on the river which paired him, but, all he had was one-pair.

[wazz]

Don't get me wrong, I like preflop, but you're overthinking things and giving too much credit to $11 donkaments players.

[pete fabrizio]

tl;dr

they're not making a big enough mistake by calling with a flush draw on the turn to justify your calling w/ 6-8 outs oop on the flop. save that play for super-tilted aggro payoff monkey when you're playing deep deep stacks.

edit: I never thought I would use "tl;dr" in my life, but it totally applies here.

[wazz]

WTF does it mean is what I've been wondering about the last 6 months.

[pete fabrizio]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF does it mean is what I've been wondering about the last 6 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

too long; didn't read

[liquid]

Don't make me break this out a third time.