Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question - Page 25

Chump Change · #**241** 07-27-2007, 05:20 AM

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True, those people should have gotten an education, a job, and bought some insurance.

They didn't. So they suffer the consequences.

Should society provide them a mercedes and a mansion as well?

You want to take from some people who were responsible, and give to those that weren't. That is called theft.

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Keep... forgetting... i'm not... in BBV... and these people.. are serious...

John Spartan · #**242** 07-27-2007, 05:25 AM

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The thing that annoyed me the most were the stories about people getting denied their claims on technicalities. Regardless of the dishonest example picking moore used, in a free market companies that ran around denying people legitimate care would go out of business.

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You're ignorant about this. There's no other way to say it. It's called bad faith insurance and it happens a lot more often than you think. Lawyers have gotten rich off the failure of health insurance companies to own up to their responsibilities and pay for care that is covered under the policies they sell. A lot of people don't have money to hire an attorney and a lot of state health care regulation boards are bought and paid for by the private insurance companies. Now I realize that you're probably pretty sheltered and have no clue what's really going on, so I suggest you go to Google and punch in what I told you to punch in, in quotes, and then come back to me and tell me that what Moore was talking about doesn't really happen that often, if at all. If you can do that with a straight face, congrats, you should probably apply for a position in the Bush administration.

And the stuff about howt axes would have go to up tremendously just isn't true. You have no proof to back up your assertions but I could quote plenty of studies that show that it wouldn't cost any more than we're already spending. If you'd like me to, say so.

JacKnight21 · #**243** 07-27-2007, 06:17 AM

Apples & Oranges a simple test

The US has the best healthcare in the world but not the best system. It has lots of problems.

1)Of the 8 largest countries pick the one you want average care in:China India US Indonesia Brazil Pakistan Bangladesh Nigeria

2)You are a 23 week premature baby pick a country to be born in? England US Cuba (hint 2 decisions are fatal)

3)You have cancer pick a country for treatment? Canada US Cuba

4) You are a country (other than US) and you want to cure a disease. You can (A) pay for the research yourself or (B) let the Americans pay.

***obv i picked biased questions

The US will continue to have the best care in the world and it will continue to cost more than anywhere in the world even if it goes to single payor. Cost should not be the reason for change.

Chump Change · #**244** 07-27-2007, 06:20 AM

John Spartan,

You've valiantly held the line, almost single handedly, while being woefully outnumbered. Kudos.

Chump Change · #**245** 07-27-2007, 06:24 AM

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I care about ME and my family. Period. I can afford health care because I have an education and a good job and am a productive member of society. I don't really give a crap about anything else. Does that make me "selfish" or "immoral"? Well that's up to you and your definition of the word immoral.

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I guess it does mean something that you're the only person to come out and blatantly admit it. Care about your family huh? That's awesome. Your mom? She didn't die or anything, right, like from cancer or something, right? Awesome, good for you.

Plus, I really like how you tacked on the productive part below:

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I have an education and a good job and am a productive member of society.

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You almost, just almost, make it seem like you actually did 'earn' something and it's not a big lottery. Great.

JacKnight21 · #**246** 07-27-2007, 06:30 AM

more apples and oranges

Comparing the US to a country of 4 million who are wealthy educated and healthier doesn't seem fair. Americans are violent $3B per year spent treating gunshot wounds. There are 16-20 mil non-citizens living here.

American are fatter and sicker

England with the highest premature birthrate in europe has 50,000/y (pop 60mil)vs the US with 500,000/y premature births (pop 300 mil. One could think that if these expectant mothers received better care there wouldn't such a discrepancy (2x). But all these mothers are eligible for free government sponsored and administrated health care.

The best health care in the world is available to you in america you just have to find a way to get it.

John Spartan · #**247** 07-27-2007, 09:18 AM

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The best health care in the world is available to you in america you just have to find a way to get it.

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and you are the whim of your private insurance company and whether or not they are going to cover your care, if you are lucky enough to have insurance(i do).

John Spartan · #**248** 07-27-2007, 09:22 AM

Thanks chump.

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I have an education and a good job and am a productive member of society.

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You almost, just almost, make it seem like you actually did 'earn' something and it's not a big lottery. Great.

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It really is amazing how these people conveniently ignore the fact that they won the womb lottery. Plenty of people didn't. I did, and was able to afford health insurance.

What these people fail to see is how much the infrastructure of the United States government contributes to their ability to get and maintain wealth. Asking the people at the very top to pay a bit more in taxes to cover everyone with health insurance(repealing the Bush tax cuts basically, which went mostly to the top 1% of income earners, people earning over $320k or so a year, would go a long way toward doing this) is hardly fascist or socialist. It's common sense.

NickMPK · #**249** 07-27-2007, 09:22 AM

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The thing that annoyed me the most were the stories about people getting denied their claims on technicalities. Regardless of the dishonest example picking moore used, in a free market companies that ran around denying people legitimate care would go out of business.

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Are you suggesting that companies don't in fact do this?
Just because your economic models say something should happen doesn't make it true.

These models are only worth anything to the extent that they mirror actual reality. And healthcare markets diverge too strongly in too many ways from the assumptions of the perfectly competitive economic model to just say that this is what "would happen" under the free market when observed reality is so different.

NickMPK · #**250** 07-27-2007, 09:34 AM

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more apples and oranges

Comparing the US to a country of 4 million who are wealthy educated and healthier doesn't seem fair.

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On average, American is much wealthier and better educated than most contries with universal healthcare. The fact that we have more people in poverty is, IMO, a pretty compelling reason why would should have universal health care, not an argument against it.

Americans are fatter, but have a lot fewer smokers. I'm not sure what the balance is here. But at least some obesity is caused by the fact that people are never informed about the health risks or good nutrition (especially good nutrition for children) because they never see a doctor because they don't have health insurance.

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Americans are violent $3B per year spent treating gunshot wounds.

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Do you have an estimate for what % of health care costs are due to treating violent injuries? ($3B per year on gunshots is only $10/per capita, just a small fraction of 1% of a person's annual healthcare spending.)

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The best health care in the world is available to you in america you just have to find a way to get it.

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This is true...but how is it an argument against make it easier for people to find a way to get healthcare?