KTs preflop 3-bet vs donker & river c/r

timoK · #1 08-31-2007, 07:58 AM

6max 5/10 at stars.

villain is unknown and raises first in from CO

Hero [KTs] 3-bets from button... everyone else fold.

flop is 449 rainbow.
villain donks, hero calls

turn T
villain bets, hero calls

river 9 [rainbow]
villain checks, hero bets, villain raises...

comments on all streets please.

Oink · #2 08-31-2007, 08:02 AM

If you called the river you played it as I would.

Not sure thats a sign of quality tho.

sharpie · #3 08-31-2007, 08:04 AM

Hate to be a nit, but I remember a couple years ago baronzeus posting about 3 betting a CO open with KTs OTB and the consensus was to fold.. FWIW I sometimes reraise with a read. KJo I almost always reraise, and it has similar equity so I'm not sure it's so cut and dry, but whatever.

I would've raised the turn. As played I think you gotta payoff, doesn't look like you have much, he could be counterfeited on the river, or pulling a silly move with A hi. He also should expect you to check behind if he has a 9.

Edit: I was thinking pocket pair under 9s was counterfeitd, now only 22/33 are. Still I wouldn't fold when you've played it so passive.

Oink · #4 08-31-2007, 08:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hate to be a nit, but I remember a couple years ago baronzeus posting about 3 betting a CO open with KTs OTB and the consensus was to fold.. FWIW I sometimes reraise with a read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Dunno why I didnt comment on that one.

3-betting preflop is definetely not a no-brainer. Vs an unknown I would just muck it.

sharpie · #5 08-31-2007, 08:10 AM

Do you 3 bet KJo against an unknown? I did a stove and it has slightly worse equity against his range, plus probably plays worse than KTs if we get multiway? Maybe I should start mucking that without a read, but I already feel too nitty what with folding KJo UTG and KTo in the HJ. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

timoK · #6 08-31-2007, 08:24 AM

I just checked my DB and most (somehow thinking) people have a slightly higher raise factor as CO than their overall Preflop raise factor. e.g. if you raise 20% of your hands you raise 22% out of CO (as a rough overview)

- if villain is very passiv (pfr little over 10%) you only have 38% equity (but I guess you should be able to outplay this passiv people at 5/10 postflop)
- if villain is a little more aggressiv but still rather passiv for 5/10 stars games (15% pfr) you have 43% equity; close call in my opinion
- but if villain is the average LAG 30/22 you have 47% equity which should be an easy call in position with the dead blind money (ok, I guess dead most of the times)

HoneyBadger · #7 08-31-2007, 08:26 AM

I wouldn't 3-bet KJo, just muck it. KJo is actually much weaker than it seems. It looks like a nice hand, two big cards and all, but in reality it's a very marginal hand. I don't think you should (usually) 3 bet hands you do not open UTG. (against a maniac it's fine, but since this guy is unknown it also makes it hard to play)

Oink · #8 08-31-2007, 08:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you 3 bet KJo against an unknown?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.

But i just saw a Schneids vid in which he 3-bet an unknown CO open with JTo in a 30/60 [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img].

Timo is making a good argument for 3-betting. I am not convinced that Hero needs 50% eq preflop for a 3-bet to be good.

Stuff like rake, villains postflop skills, blinds, image and position are all important as well.

I wouldnt be surprised if you can turn KJo, KTs, QJs, 98s into profitable hands vs an unknown CO open.

Equity smequity - fk that I pwn postflop!

Edit: Also, if you start 3-betting junk preflop you get a really fun image as people start to hate your guts. If nothing else that makes it funnier to play poker [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

timoK · #9 08-31-2007, 09:04 AM

hmm, interessting thoughts.

in the actual hand villain folded the river to the c/r.

but back to the hand:
- 3-betting KTs is a tough spot
- most people here raise rather the turn than just call
- as played most people call the river c/r

with other words, 2+2 disagrees with every street. (which I also do)

but here is the funny thing:
the hand was played by some guy of www.intellipoker.com
he said he will turn 300BB (at 5/10 = 3k$) into 300BB at 200/400 by the end of this year with some aggressive bankroll management...
I thought like: man I disagree with every street in the hand and there is no chance in hell you can get up that high in stakes that fast... but hey if he makes it: you rock dude, I deeply bow to you!

NinaWilliams · #10 08-31-2007, 11:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you 3 bet KJo against an unknown? I did a stove and it has slightly worse equity against his range, plus probably plays worse than KTs if we get multiway? Maybe I should start mucking that without a read, but I already feel too nitty what with folding KJo UTG and KTo in the HJ. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I 3 bet KJs and KQo. I 3 bet KJo in the sb vs a button open only by default.