10NL Playing for stacks with weak hands vs. shove-happy villain

Tuee · #1 07-15-2007, 12:49 PM

Two hands with the same villain; he is 64/23/2.8, and has a habit of making open-shoves pf and big over-bets on the turn/river after only moderate action on the flop. I've also seen him bluff like crazy. I've been suspecting him of floating my cbets and trying to steal. In terms of his over-bets, my hunch is it's him trying to buy his way out of trouble if he's behind; or, since he bluffs so much himself, he wants to make sure no one is "putting a play" on him.

First hand:

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero raises to $0.65, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($1.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $1, CO calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($3.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $2, CO raises all-in $16.47, Hero calls all-in $6.75.
Uncalled bets: $7.72 returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: $21

I almost timed out thinking about calling his shove on the turn, but in the end I decided that this guy was just to terrible to not look him up here. I also strongly doubt that he would try to knock me off my hand this way if he hit the flush/had a set/had AK.

Second hand:

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($0.2, 2 players)
SB bets $0.3, Hero raises to $1, SB calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($2.2, 2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($6.2, 2 players)
SB is all-in $7.42, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $21.04

Got a free flop and caught TPWK. The river over-bet looked like a busted draw to me. He could have caught a Q, but since he would also bluff with air I call. (And although it would be smart of him to shove a Q for value given our history, I'm not sure he's really that smart.)

In general, do you agree with this approach for this sort of villain?

Shoe Lace · #2 07-15-2007, 12:59 PM

I don't mind the call on hand 1 vs that type of villain, but I wouldn't be surprised to see K8 here by him. Too often they'll show up with like Kx 9h making this profitable.

Hand 2 is just mega mega spew. What kind of busted draw does he have? The only hand I can see him maybe having is 44 but even that is unlikely because he'd probably raise PF.

I think the results of hand 1 would help with hand 2. Does he often bluff at made flushes?

Vern · #3 07-15-2007, 01:09 PM

My experience with the NL10 pre-flop shovers and post flop overbetters is that it is better to fight them pre-flop. They will be pushing a lot of marginal hands to maintain the image but post flop, we seem to remember their big plays but they are always showing down with a worthy hand. They make their money making big value bets essentially after having set us up to perceive them as lagtards, when in reality, they are only true lagtards preflop (pushing all-in with 40%+ of their hands sometimes) but they get paid on the turn/river by those that still don't believe them. My typical defense is I will push them preflop like a lagtard, but fight them post flop like a thinking player. That seems to work much better than putting my OP on the felt to their turned straight with the 74o they called a PFR with. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

gedanken · #4 07-15-2007, 01:11 PM

hand 1 is standard, unfortunately. You just have to hold your nose as you call down. And remember that you'll lose many of these, and it's still profitable if you win just a few more than you lose.

hand 2 is where he gets you back. He knows you saw the flop for free and could have anything, yet he's not afraid. It's really easy to beat your pair here, you barely even have a bluff catcher. He could have made a straight or 2 pair on the turn, and he's just reeling you in on the river, because he's got you right where he wants you (calling down light).

here is a good article about how lags beat you:
http://www.cardschat.com/blog/09/12/...-implied-odds/

Tuee · #5 07-15-2007, 01:15 PM

Results of hand 1 is that villain was holding A3o-- air. This why I called hand 2. Given that villain will shove with air, do you still think hand 2 is a spew?

CaryDarling · #6 07-15-2007, 01:26 PM

Hand 1: I don't like the raise from sb with K/Jo. K/J looks pretty, but is a sucky hand to play in position, let alone OOP, especially when you're the one bloating the pot.

Hand 2: I don't mind the raise on the flop, but once he bets on the turn, I think I'm done with the hand, even with the straight draw, a straight is already there.

The river call, there is nothing you can beat here other than a bluff.

Shoe Lace · #7 07-15-2007, 01:27 PM

Given hand #1's results I'm calling the flop on hand #2, not raising, and folding the turn unless it's a 3 or 6.

That board and your hand is just gross.

Hand 1 is ok because you have a legit hand here in a raised pot.

When playing vs these villains try to be the one initiating the raises and shoves. As Vern said, quite a few of them are not totally brain dead. When they put their stack in, they usually have something pretty strong (which was garbage preflop, but improved on later steets).

They prey on other player's lack of folding TP?K or middle pairs vs them because they think you see them as a maniac.

Everything changes when you're the one pushing him around though. They shut down a lot, and will start to call you down light if you keep doing this. This is when you move in for the kill and rip their face off with TPGK.

Your villain might have just been bad at playing this style, but the better ones (the guys with 3-4 buyins and are only playing 1 table) will usually have the goods when they start raising/shoving on the turn/river (if they think you're only playing big card hands).

Tuee · #8 07-15-2007, 01:31 PM

And thanks for that article gedanken; I read it, and it makes total sense with my past experience with LAGs.

Having said all of that, I just don't think this particular villain is intelligent enough to have that sort of thought process. And if he bluffs with air, I'm still ahead of his range with mid-pair.

Tuee · #9 07-15-2007, 01:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I don't mind the raise on the flop, but once he bets on the turn, I think I'm done with the hand, even with the straight draw, a straight is already there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bother raising the flop if I'm just going to fold to a bet on the turn? Since we know villain is aggro with any 2, we know we're folding the turn almost for sure, so why bother contributing any more on the flop?

Remember, on hand 1 we saw that villain would defend "his pot" to the death, even with nothing at all. Given this info, how can I be behind his range on any street in hand 2?

drsmooth · #10 07-15-2007, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Having said all of that, I just don't think this particular villain is intelligent enough to have that sort of thought process. And if he bluffs with air, I'm still ahead of his range with mid-pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if he's just been caught? If he's such an idiot you can find better spots than 3rd pair of wahtever. I'd definitely call in hand one given your read, but wait for a better spot in hand 2, as such a spot can't be far off. Unless someone else stacks them first and they don't re-buy, which always sucks..