I really hated this whole hand

[DaveyDonk]

UTG+1 is 41/24/1.5, has raised any pair, any Axs, 2 face, etc. Also pretty aggressive postflop, buddy list material fosho.
CO is 90/6/.7 who is now also on the buddy list, but he can actuall fold now & then postflop.
Button is a 17/12.7/1.8 TAG who i KNOW will 3-bet this fairly lightly based on who is in the hand so far.



Converted by PokerGeek
PartyPoker Limit Hold'em Ring - $3/$6 Texas Stakes (8 handed)

Starting Stacks
Seat 1: Button ($126.50)
Seat 2: Small blind (Hero) ($92)
Seat 3: Big blind ($289)
Seat 4: UTG ($102)
Seat 5: UTG+1 ($84.50)
Seat 6: MP ($205.50)
Seat 9: LP ($126.68)
Seat 10: CO ($223.50)

Preflop: Hero is Small blind with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 raises, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button raises, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls

Flop: (12.67 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Button checks

Turn: (6.33 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls

River: (8.33 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls

Final Pot: $60 ($0 rake)

Results not shown

I planned to C/R the 3-bettor on the flop. When he check and the K hit, I actually cursed out loud, which never happens. I figured a fold was inevitable, as that K surely hit an AK or 2, but when everyone folded to the donk's turn bet, I figured I was getting over 4:1 odds on a call-down.

Comments on all streets appreciated, mainly preflop and the turn. I figure at the turn I have to make my decision to fold or call down as I can't really put him on ANY hand, and I think folding is fairly weak against this guy, am I stupid??

[Nick Royale]

The TAG will probably 3-bet these idiots with a far wider range than usual. I like preflop, I like the flop plan and a call down from the turn is a must.

We will win the pot sometimes UI and with the implied odds against these poor players we almost get the odds to see the flop only to draw to a set. It seems like it won't get capped all that often, or is the LAG capping light also.

The only thing I hate about the hand is Button checking the flop.

[stinkpaw]

In situations like this, I look at a couple PT stats that don’t usually get a lot of mention here.

Turn Agg. How often does this guy bet the turn? Many players will fire away at the flop but pull back on the Turn unless they have a real hand.

WTS: Is he capable of folding?

Won When Bet Turn: Does he bet Turn with the nuts or with marginal hands?

So, if an opponent is aggressive on the Turn, is capable of folding, and doesn’t only bet the Turn with the nuts, I’ll raise the Turn. If he plays back at me, I know I’m beat and fold. If he calls, I’ll usually get a free showdown (still costs me the same 2 bets as calling down.) And this way I have some chance of him folding a better hand.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Won When Bet Turn: Does he bet Turn with the nuts or with marginal hands?

[/ QUOTE ]
You need a huge sample to use this stat.

[ QUOTE ]
So, if an opponent is aggressive on the Turn, is capable of folding, and doesn’t only bet the Turn with the nuts, I’ll raise the Turn. If he plays back at me, I know I’m beat and fold. If he calls, I’ll usually get a free showdown (still costs me the same 2 bets as calling down.) And this way I have some chance of him folding a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Against a less aggressive player I would love this line, but when the flop checks though I think this type of player might take a maniacal turn line. I don't think the times he'll fold overs to the 99s often at all here, we might get bluffed on the turn and if we only call the turn he's likely to keep bluffing the river.

[DaveyDonk]

I hadn't recalled the LAG capping any preflop, and he would have had the opportunity to do it many times.

Couple questions:
a) if the TAG calls his turn bet, what do you think is best?
b) if the Loose-Passive calls the turn, what's the plan?

If the tag is calling also I think me calling down may be -EV, not sure. The other guy, well, he's peeled with tons of stuff only to fold the river, so I don't think I can fold that. Maybe even a value raise in this case???

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
a) if the TAG calls his turn bet, what do you think is best?

[/ QUOTE ]
The TAG calling could be strange since if he hit is K I count on him raising. If he had a PP he would have bet the flop. Him calling makes no sense, especially since I think he'll bet the flop with a fd and overs. He might realise you're good and probably only calling 3 bets in BB with a PP preparring to check/raise a flop like this? Whatever, I fold if the TAG calls. His presence makes a calldown bad.

[ QUOTE ]
b) if the Loose-Passive calls the turn, what's the plan?

[/ QUOTE ]
I call.

[Solid_p]

I like the play on all streets. A flop c/r is a good move. As it turned out on the later streets, calling down is good.

[bobhalford]

Oh boy, when an opponent like this bets the turn after so much weakness has been shown, I would call down at the very least. You could raise, but that puts you in a tough position if he 3-bets with a 3, even though that's really unlikely. I wouldn't fear the king, but would more if button called (though even that wouldn't do much to convince me that there was a King out there). Pretty easy calldown imo.

Also, sometimes you want to bet this flop. It's such a nasty flop that the only time someone has something is when they have a flush draw. If your opponents' aggregate aggression factor is enough to make you positive that a bet will come, it's good to checkraise, but this board is so filled with absolutely nothing that I would want to bet at it, as your opponents could easily fear a 3 or some kind of pair, which is what you have, and which is likely to be better than anything they have. An 8 might bet this flopo, but they have to fear a raise from button, so having this flop check through isn't that unlikely, and it makes the hand very difficult to play. Button doesn't have to have a pair bigger than yours, and he's not betting into so many players with AK, so you want to bet. I hope I'm not being results oriented in my thinking here, but I would want to bet at this flop. Come to think of it, I'd want to 3-bet pf to face the limpers with 2 cold and represent a big and when mine turns out to be best, but maybe that's another discussion altogether.

[DaveyDonk]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd want to 3-bet pf to face the limpers with 2 cold and represent a big and when mine turns out to be best, but maybe that's another discussion altogether.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd 3-bet this easy, but it was already 3 bets to me (well, 2 2/3 bets). I wondered if capping is best in this situation, and I don't think its bad, except that I'm out of position against a probable 3 people with a hand that is very hard to play usually.

I think I like betting this too. I guess its a trade-off between the value bet and giving overs the odds to call (half the damn deck is a scare card for me) or taking the chance of getting it checked through but facing others w/ 2 bets, which probably at least 1 of them would call with anyways, albeit incorrectly (I think....been at the casino all night, my brain hurts so no more calculations for me!).

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd want to 3-bet pf to face the limpers with 2 cold and represent a big and when mine turns out to be best, but maybe that's another discussion altogether.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd 3-bet this easy, but it was already 3 bets to me (well, 2 2/3 bets). I wondered if capping is best in this situation, and I don't think its bad, except that I'm out of position against a probable 3 people with a hand that is very hard to play usually.

I think I like betting this too. I guess its a trade-off between the value bet and giving overs the odds to call (half the damn deck is a scare card for me) or taking the chance of getting it checked through but facing others w/ 2 bets, which probably at least 1 of them would call with anyways, albeit incorrectly (I think....been at the casino all night, my brain hurts so no more calculations for me!).

[/ QUOTE ]
Capping preflop imo:

1. We're mostly playing this hand for set value so we do not want to pay more than 2 bets to see the flop and we don't want to force out the limpers becuase they're good for our implied odds.
2. We would like to be abe to check/raise a ragged flop and face the rest of the field with 2 cold. If we cap we need to bet out good looking flops.