NL10 TPTK oop vs. crowd, line check

WantToLearn · #1 10-23-2007, 06:01 AM

Ok, I have AK, I flop TPTK, I am out of position, I play against 3 villains, and I need some advice here. Thanks!

Reads: The table was playing pretty loose. However, no-one gets way out of line. This was definitely not the right spot to c-bet with air. I don´t know any of the villains well. As for my first impression, I would like to treat the big stack as a reasonable player for the time being.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) Poker"]http://www.flopturnriver.com/reviews/Online-Poker-PokerStars.php#converter]Poker Stars[/url] Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($2.20)
SB ($2.25)
BB ($6.85)
Hero ($10)
MP1 ($6.10)
MP2 ($9.85)
CO ($9.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $0.35, MP1 calls $0.35, MP2 calls $0.35, 2 folds, SB calls $0.30, 1 fold.

Flop: ($1.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.8, MP2 folds, SB folds, Hero raises to $1.75, MP1 raises to $2.7, Hero raises to $9, MP1 calls $3.05 (All-In).

 Now here is my reasoning:
MP2 is capapble of calling a bet just because it looks like a standard c-bet. This doesn´t let me know where I stand. I wouldn´t like to play for the deep stacks with my holding against him. If I c/r him and he calls/raises, his range is pretty much limited to KQ, KJs, 66. While that is not for sure, it is more likely than not that he would preflop reraise JJ, fold KTs and so on.

As for the small stack and the mid-stack, I think committing with my holding might be fine, given the stack sizes. Now, if I c/r them, they might be tempted to bet a weaker hand, and even for the player to my left, it is not a long way to get them committed.

So I check-raise. I raise for just a bit more than a min-raise because I want to "chop it up" and get him to pay.

Instead of calling, he now min.raises himself. This might be trouble. But I can´t get out against an unknown now with little money behind, can I?

ranka · #2 10-23-2007, 07:18 AM

Haha! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This is NL10 - don't overthink and just BET, BET, BET and money moves! Into your pockets ofcourse [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I would CBET this flop.

As played, I can't say your check-raise is wrong but your raise size was too small. Make it 2.5-3$.

ElectricWaffles · #3 10-23-2007, 07:36 AM

Personally I come right out and bet the flop for $1. It's a pretty dry flop and the only two hands you realistically have to worry about are KJ and 66.

I'm not betting more than $1 because we've got no fold equity against hands we beat (KJ or 66 arn't folding), also we want a call from hands we do beat like KQ or KT. I guess going for a check/raise is fine too, though as you said you are getting committed versus the shortstacks if they bet.

I'm not concerned about MP2 assuming I'm Cbetting having missed and therefore calling, because he'd be making the mistake. If he *has* got you beat you'll proabably know before the river because he'll be playing for stacks and you can react accordingly.

WantToLearn · #4 10-23-2007, 08:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not betting more than $1 because we've got no fold equity against hands we beat (KJ or 66 arn't folding), also we want a call from hands we do beat like KQ or KT. I guess going for a check/raise is fine too, though as you said you are getting committed versus the shortstacks if they bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but... if I bet out, I am not laying down to MP1´s raise, as he is an unkown with a donk-stack and this might be KQ or KT easily. I am not planning to fold here anyway.
Only the plan was that say MP1 calls on 3 streets hesitatingly because he thinks he´s paid too much to get out for just one more not-so-big bet [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Haha! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This is NL10 - don't overthink and just BET, BET, BET and money moves! Into your pockets ofcourse [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The good thing about NL10 is that you can exploit your opponents weaknesses. When telling someone "It´s NL10, just bet, bet, bet" that basicaly means "they are calling too much, you can exploit that by betting TPTK more than normal".

Now while that is true, there are more weaknesses than can be exploited.

The table was loose enough that few hands were just checked down, so why not try to collect an extra bet?

[ QUOTE ]
As played, I can't say your check-raise is wrong but your raise size was too small. Make it 2.5-3$.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I understand why we don´t normaly want to play good hands slow.
Looking back I am not 100% sure any more, but when I made my decision I thought if MP1 at least calls a c/r, the SPR is such that I am never laying down.

Now, if I go to the showdown no matter what turn card comes, why not make a smaller bet to suck him in and get him committed? Once I plan to proceed anyway, this is not slowplaying in a normal sense. I have 3 streets to get the money out of him should he just call my c/r.

toymach776 · #5 10-23-2007, 12:10 PM

This is a good flop for your hand and I would cbet here for like 1-1.2. I dont like the c/r in this spot. When you take a line where you raise pf and c/r flop, this often indicates a very strong made hand at 10NL in my experience.

[ QUOTE ]
Now here is my reasoning:
MP2 is capapble of calling a bet just because it looks like a standard c-bet. This doesn´t let me know where I stand.

[/ QUOTE ]
You DIDNT make a standard cbet. You took a much stronger line. Villain isnt calling your cbet. Hes bet/3betting you in a 4 way pot after you took a very strong line yourself!! This lets you know exactly where you stand. Regardless I think I am probaby getting it in given his stack size here. Sorry that he had you beat.

ElectricWaffles · #6 10-23-2007, 12:25 PM

If MP1 3betted all in would you call?

WantToLearn · #7 10-23-2007, 12:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Now here is my reasoning:
MP2 is capapble of calling a bet just because it looks like a standard c-bet. This doesn´t let me know where I stand.

[/ QUOTE ]
You DIDNT make a standard cbet. You took a much stronger line. Villain isnt calling your cbet. Hes bet/3betting you in a 4 way pot after you took a very strong line yourself!! This lets you know exactly where you stand. Regardless I think I am probaby getting it in given his stack size here. Sorry that he had you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it´s the other villain MP1 with the smaller stack. The same reraise coming from the big stack MP2, and I fold, because I know where I stand. That´s what the check-raise was for, amongst others.

[ QUOTE ]
If MP1 3betted all in would you call?

[/ QUOTE ]

3-betted to the c/r (as played) or to a betting out by Hero?
That´s something I wouldn´t like very much. The combination of "TPTK" plus "against unknown with a donk-stack" plus "ratio pot as is now to remaining money" ... I tend to call. Would you?

ElectricWaffles · #8 10-23-2007, 01:05 PM

To be honest I think i'd fold. Weaktight?

I think stack/pot ratio, donk stack etc. are all valid points. Really though I'd just think I was beat and wouldn't think the pot offered me good enough odds to call.

My technical thinking isn't as developed as others on this forum, so i'm probably getting out of line here, however...

I think things like stack-pot ratio's and commitment thresholds are sometimes given higer precidence over more simple things like pot odds, when they shouldn't.

I dont agree with the arguement that when you've got 1/2 your effective stack in the pot that you're commited. In this situation *if* he'd 3betted all in you'd have to call $4 to see a $9 pot (about). I just dont think you'd be ahead enough to justify calling. I'd wait for a time when i'm more certain.

For a bit of controversy I'd say this too. After he's 4betted you that pretty much means he's going to get AI no matter what. So I'd treat his min 4bet exactly the same way i'd treat him pusing AI then and there. So I'd probably fold there too, because I think he's always going to be betting the rest of his stack on the turn or river.

I'm guessing that's weaktight and i'm going to get shot down for it. However i'd welcome any counter arguements.

Effen · #9 10-23-2007, 01:11 PM

Generally speaking, getting a 60 bb villain AI with TPTK is infrequently wrong.

That said, flop bet/min3bets are very rarely worse than TPTK. I'd generally dump to that line.

threads13 · #10 10-23-2007, 01:20 PM

Are you committed on this flop? I imagine this changes depending on the players. Was your check with the intention of raising? I don't think you need to c/r to "find out where you are at".