C-betting survey.

[well named]

There could be some confusion about:

[ QUOTE ]
One more point: while "c-bet" is often used to mean a flop bet after a preflop raise when you have absolutely nothing, for the purposes of this survey let's just use it to mean any flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont understand how over half say that hand strength doesn't affect their cbetting frequency. i don't understand how that can possibly be true unless you were to just cbet 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I cbet 100% of the time, people starting calling down lighter and then, If I don't adjust, I begin spewing.

If I sometimes don't c-bet strong hands, I can Checkraise the flop. Or C/C down... sometimes making more.

By c-bet bluffing a percentage of the time, and checking sometimes with stronger hands, its much harder for people to put me on a hand.

[WHITEBOYAEHS]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet less often when I'm OOP - 5 23%

Expected this to be higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

[GSykes]

Answered every question.

Yw

[members_only]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been experimenting with c-betting a little less lately, like 65-70% heads up instead of 90%, but mainly just by not c-betting in spots where I think the flop very easily hit villain's range and i'm OOP with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
right, but if a board is super bad for cbetting, you're still gonna cbet it if you actually hooked up with it, whereas you're not if you didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you guys give some examples of flops that you thought 'very easily hit villain's range' or that are generally 'super bad for c-betting'? I don't really get statements like these.

[bored]

Re: cbetting

I cheat and use fold cbet/call cbet/raise cbet on my HUD to determine c-bet frequency and the flop texture to determine bet size.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've been experimenting with c-betting a little less lately, like 65-70% heads up instead of 90%, but mainly just by not c-betting in spots where I think the flop very easily hit villain's range and i'm OOP with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
right, but if a board is super bad for cbetting, you're still gonna cbet it if you actually hooked up with it, whereas you're not if you didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you guys give some examples of flops that you thought 'very easily hit villain's range' or that are generally 'super bad for c-betting'? I don't really get statements like these.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flops that hit Villains range:

JT9 2 suited

AK6 2 suited (the same villains who pay you off w/ A9 on this board are calling you down with A9 when you have nothing too)

865

Basically suited/connected flops/flops with middle cards/ are not good for your raising range and are good for your opponents T9s or A8s or 77.

It has a lot to do with villains range to call raises whether you'd cbet or not on the above boards (I'd cbet any of them vs a nit/TAG set farmer and shut down if called) and a lot to do with position (I'd be more likely to bet if I was IP and checked to).

[members_only]

[ QUOTE ]
It has a lot to do with villains range to call raises whether you'd cbet or not on the above boards (I'd cbet any of them vs a nit/TAG set farmer and shut down if called)

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't it have everything to do with villain's cold calling range?

And wouldn't a lot of people here be opening a lot of A8s, T9 type hands themselves?

I just don't understand how you can make universal statements on this subject detached from the players and 'ranges' in question

Furthermore, boards that look scary to you often also look scary to the opponent who called you. Having an accurate enough idea of the typical villain's pre-flop cold-calling range to determine when this is and isn't the case seems almost impossible

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It has a lot to do with villains range to call raises whether you'd cbet or not on the above boards (I'd cbet any of them vs a nit/TAG set farmer and shut down if called)

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't it have everything to do with villain's cold calling range?

And wouldn't a lot of people here be opening a lot of A8s, T9 type hands themselves?

I just don't understand how you can make universal statements on this subject detached from the players and 'ranges' in question

Furthermore, boards that look scary to you often also look scary to the opponent who called you. Having an accurate enough idea of the typical villain's pre-flop cold-calling range to determine when this is and isn't the case seems almost impossible

[/ QUOTE ]

i think i see your point, but i disagree.

typical standard loose passive villains like to call OOP in the blinds with suited connectors. they also don't (arguably correctly) like to fold if they get a piece of the flop. suited and connecting middle ranking flops hit a villains range harder than normal. unless the villain is thinking it doesn't matter that the flop might hit your range quite well too.

does that make sense?

supplementary edit: the question of course is therefore whether the flop hits an oppoonent's range hard enough to make cbetting unprofitable.

[members_only]

Ok, well you're making a statement about a particular type of opponent that is quite common at uNL... perhaps that was all everyone else was doing and I was just being a bit pedantic

But I would say that to me the fact that a villain doesn't like to fold any piece is much more important in deciding whether to c-bet or not than my estimation of how well the flop fits with their pre-flop cold-calling range

[whyzze]

every hand where you have an option to cbet is going to be different than the previous one. So much goes into it that there is no way to quantify what is and isn't correct. I would say that in any situation if you aren't sure whether to cbet or not, then you should definately cbet.


As for bet sizing, I think I said that I never change the size. But I actually do. When I find players that I'm 90% sure aren't paying attention to my bet sizes I will adjust. There are plenty of players that only play their hand, so 1/2 pot will make them fold when they miss and if they have top pair they call full pot all day or minraise or so on.


I notice so many players, even regs that post here raise from the co and get a call and then just start mashing the pot button because they have aces. Its so damn obvious and I 9 table.


summation:
Too much goes into every situation that there is no correct answer in alot of cases.
if you aren't sure if you should cbet, then cbet.
Its perfectly OK to change your bet sizes against a player that doesn't pay attention.
If you are going to change your sizes against all players then I think you are getting into FPS. We all know FPS at uNL is not a good thing.