Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm

[David Sklansky]

Not because of charitable work or anything like that. But rather simply because it makes a lot of people happier than they otherwise would be. They might claim that they would like to be free of the restrictions that their religion puts on them. But I think almost everybody would agree that they are happier with their religion and its restrictions than they would be without either.

Even if you go under the assumption that the specifics of any religion are definitely false, that doesn't mean that a practitioner of that religion or even someone not yet born who is destined to practice it, is better off not believing in it. The fact is that only a minority of the individuals in this world gain more than they lose by being atheists, even if atheism is assumed to be correct.

In order to gain from atheism you need to be the type of person who derives much satisfaction from knowing the truth and you also need to be someone who is pretty happy with what they are doing and how their life is going. There are atheists who do not fit into this category of course. They might be ex theists who have become embittered. But that was probably too bad for them.

I had originally assummed that almost everyone on this forum is one of those minority of people who is better off not believing in something that is a monumental underdog to be true. Which is why I gave arguments for non belief. Perhaps ten percent of theists would be happier if they became atheists. But I thought a much bigger percent of two plus two theists would be happier as atheists. I don't think that anymore. So I see no good reason for me to pursue the subject further.

[vhawk01]

So you mean, above and beyond "drug addicts are happier on drugs?"

[David Sklansky]

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So you mean, above and beyond "drug addicts are happier on drugs?"

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If in fact drug addicts were truly happier on drugs I would mean only slightly more than that. But most drug addicts aren't, so it is a bad analogy.

[vhawk01]

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So you mean, above and beyond "drug addicts are happier on drugs?"

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If in fact drug addicts were truly happier on drugs I would mean only slightly more than that. But most drug addicts aren't, so it is a bad analogy.

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Like 5 seconds after they inject I mean, obviously. Or at least, the pain involved in getting clean isnt worth it.

That they are actually less happy being addicts than they would be otherwise is the "more" that I'm talking about. Many people make the claim that shedding religious beliefs is very painful. Having them makes them comfortable and happy. But they say that they could be happier if they never started in the first place, or after they've "gotten clean." You are saying that even had they never started or even AFTER they get clean, they would still be less happy than when they were "hooked."

Just asking for clarification.

[m_the0ry]

Vhawk already nailed it pretty much,

We all get comfort from our obsessions. You can't gauge the benevolence of your obsession solely by how good it makes you feel, or we should all be addicted to heroin, and we would encourage sociopathy and serial killings. It's about impact and influence.

Our obsession might be knowledge. We want to learn and be informed. In a democratic society especially this has a positive impact. Some may be obsessed with the outdoors; these are the people who have expertise to search and rescue, and save lives. Some may be obsessed with football, and entertain millions. What tangible, if anything, does religion offer to the world as a side effect of the happiness it brings to the individual?

[ZeeJustin]

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But I think almost everybody would agree that they are happier with their religion and its restrictions than they would be without either.

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I think many people that say this are lying to themselves. Do you really think those same people with the same families would be depressed if they were raised atheist instead?

I think only a very small percent of theists receive a large amount of hope/inspiration/whatever from it.

I think as our society progresses, the downside of religion is getting exponentially greater. If there were never any atheists, imagine how far set back our scientific knowledge would be.

Then there's the obvious argument that most wars are caused by religion, coupled with all the intolerance, hate, and bigotry, etc.

Are you really thinking on a global level?

[vhawk01]

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But I think almost everybody would agree that they are happier with their religion and its restrictions than they would be without either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think many people that say this are lying to themselves. Do you really think those same people with the same families would be depressed if they were raised atheist instead?

I think only a very small percent of theists receive a large amount of hope/inspiration/whatever from it.

I think as our society progresses, the downside of religion is getting exponentially greater. If there were never any atheists, imagine how far set back our scientific knowledge would be.

Then there's the obvious argument that most wars are caused by religion, coupled with all the intolerance, hate, and bigotry, etc.

Are you really thinking on a global level?

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I agree with this.

I'm ALMOST positive that I've never said anything either way about this, meaning I've never said "Well, some people are just happier with their delusions" OR "Man, everybody would be way happier if they could just shed these delusions." Mostly because I have absolutely no idea which of those is true (and suspect both are false). However, I do notice many atheists (more than half) say things like "Well some people just are happier believing in fables" and it always sounds to me like "stupid mouthbreathers need to suck their thumbs or they will cry all night and throw a fit." It seems incredibly condescending to me. There are probably people who arent interested in truth or critcial evaluation of their beliefs and are only interested in superficial comfort. But surely there are plenty of people who are capable of handling shocks to their system and maybe have never even THOUGHT of deeply questioning their religious beliefs, or heard any persuasive arguments, or something like that. It just seems elitist to decree that most people who are religious are that way because they are trembling cowards who couldnt handle a Godless world.

[Mempho]

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Not because of charitable work or anything like that. But rather simply because it makes a lot of people happier than they otherwise would be. They might claim that they would like to be free of the restrictions that their religion puts on them. But I think almost everybody would agree that they are happier with their religion and its restrictions than they would be without either.

Even if you go under the assumption that the specifics of any religion are definitely false, that doesn't mean that a practitioner of that religion or even someone not yet born who is destined to practice it, is better off not believing in it. The fact is that only a minority of the individuals in this world gain more than they lose by being atheists, even if atheism is assumed to be correct.

In order to gain from atheism you need to be the type of person who derives much satisfaction from knowing the truth and you also need to be someone who is pretty happy with what they are doing and how their life is going. There are atheists who do not fit into this category of course. They might be ex theists who have become embittered. But that was probably too bad for them.

I had originally assummed that almost everyone on this forum is one of those minority of people who is better off not believing in something that is a monumental underdog to be true. Which is why I gave arguments for non belief. Perhaps ten percent of theists would be happier if they became atheists. But I thought a much bigger percent of two plus two theists would be happier as atheists. I don't think that anymore. So I see no good reason for me to pursue the subject further.

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Excellent post, David. You and I agree on the happiness factor. We disagree on what truth is, but I'm glad to see you make such a post. You're intelligent enough to see how much the intangible benefit means to many people.

FWIW, I do derive much satisfaction from "knowing the truth," and I think a lot of other theists do as well. There is almost certainly, however, a much greater number of theists who believe on the much more "intangible basis" that you describe. Anyway, "truth" is debated in almost every other thread, so I will leave it alone here.

Also, FWIW, there are many things about being a theist that make me unhappy. For instance, I believe in hell and there aren't many people that I'd feel good about them going there. In fact, it's hard to imagine even a grotesque figure like Hitler deserving damnation in eternity. Maybe 10,000 years, but forever? That doesn't make me happy at all. In fact, as a believer in Christ, I hope that there is some sort of way that everyone eventually gets to heaven. I know that's not described in the Bible, but, as far as I know, it's not completely ruled out. Certainly, I believe that God understands things in a way that I don't, so, I do believe that, in some way, he has infinate grace.

[Taraz]

Basically, most people are happier in the Matrix. I would agree with that.

[Mempho]

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Basically, most people are happier in the Matrix. I would agree with that.

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How do you know that the Matrix is religion? How do you know it's not materialism, money, sex, television, cinema, science, the denial of God, and the western culture?

Just food for thought.