BaronZeus vid hands turned into BankRoll Related thread

[Smurph64]

Adequately rolled is not just a number however which is what I was trying to say.

The calmness that baronzeas articulated was what I was commenting on and was stating that even at 4.50 pots I don't have the calmness he has at 450 dollar pots.

It just pointed out to me where I need to go beyond building bankroll in order to handle playing at levels which can make a real difference to the quality of life my family and myself can have.

The mechanics of winning at limit is more than just knowledge of proper valuations and the application of maximizing odds when in your favour.

Winning is about understanding and coping with the real value of the money (chips) you are playing with.

If you can't conceptually handle the expectation of quality of life on your play then you aren't ready to move up.

The real value of money to me is wholly different to that of an eighteen year old college student.

While I understand the merit behind the premise that you should judge the transactions of poker as an exchange of chips, I don't believe that approach is practical.

[Point Blank]

[ QUOTE ]
The real value of money to me is wholly different to that of an eighteen year old college student.

While I understand the merit behind the premise that you should judge the transactions of poker as an exchange of chips, I don't believe that approach is practical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in my 30s

[ QUOTE ]
It just pointed out to me where I need to go beyond building bankroll in order to handle playing at levels which can make a real difference to the quality of life my family and myself can have.
...
Winning is about understanding and coping with the real value of the money (chips) you are playing with.

If you can't conceptually handle the expectation of quality of life on your play then you aren't ready to move up

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO ... (and not trying to offend in anyway) this is a really [censored] up way to think about a game where skill is only a marginal factor (this isn't a game like "Go" ... you can master every skills possible, be 8000times better than your oppoents - but you can still lose everything)

if you have money to burn - playing games are fun (if the money isn't there - don't play)

some people enjoy the excitement of burning money (of gambling) ... personally, I like to Game

unless you win a WPT donkfest - poker will not likely change your life

sure - any winning player (over the long run) think about 'becoming a pro' ...
but seriously ... you need two years of livable money plus a large bankroll, plus protection (that's like 150K!!!!!!!!!!)

[Smurph64]

[quote IMO ... (and not trying to offend in anyway) this is a really [censored] up way to think about a game where skill is only a marginal factor

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense taken, I agree completely. I was just articulating my mucked up thinking because the process of documenting this kind of thinking is what helps me here.

I wish I could think that way that you do but admit I don't.

What I am saying is that the 50 dollar initial investment I started with becomes real at a certain point to me. I wish it didn't.

No matter what value that may be for each of us, I am sure that many will eventually hit that 'cap' which is what I was saying; the difference between being a pro and being an amateur.

I am admitting quite clearly that I am such an amateur that I get upset when I lose 4.50 in one pot.

The forum can teach me how to play properly and logic can be there to back up my play 100% of the time but until my thick brain is able to separate the money from the chips, until I am able to detach emotionally from the outcome, I am only going to go so far.

[detruncate]

Hi Smurph64. It's something we all struggle with. And I too like to articulate my mucked up thinking. So...

There are two skills that poker players need to learn if they're going to be successful:

1) How to play hands. This means improving your understanding of the game and training your intuition via a combination of thinking about poker away from the table + actual pokering experience.

2) How to play poker. Outside of writing books and articles and posts and such, the best strategic thinking in the world is only as useful as your ability to apply it accurately and consistently at the table. This becomes increasingly important as relative edges get smaller due to tougher games, higher rake, etc. It includes things like bankroll management too, since if you go busto it all comes to a grinding halt.

It's even more difficult to view chips as just chips when they represent food, mortgage payments, or, Jeebus-forbid, keeping your children clothed. Likewise if you're in a position where the value of money, or the price of failure, has become acutely clear to you. But you're actually dealing with two separate issues:

(a) Getting so caught up in the nominal dollar value of the virtual chips you're throwing around that you can't grasp their real value. I don't mean not valuing money in the "it's only $1... what the hell" sense, but rather understanding that the actual worth of your chips, and your roll by extension, is the opportunity they represent. You seem to be over-valuing the "I can sell them to the site for cash to buy things/pay off debts," and undervaluing the "I can use them to generate a steady, and hopefully increasing, income stream for the foreseeable future," part.

It can be hard to keep the faith when everyday pressures intrude in this abstract world we work so hard to maintain in all its pristine, theoretical glory, but I still remember the day I realized that I would only ever be a few hundred bucks + an internet connection away from a useful, relatively stable revenue stream. Takes some of the pressure off those of us who find ourselves taking unconventional paths through life.

(b) Wanting to win. It can be difficult for driven, competitive people to get used to the fact that so much of being successful at poker is learning how to lose gracefully. We've all heard that "to be a good loser you have to first be a loser," but given how much randomness is involved in pokering it's impossible to be successful if you don't first let go of this sort of idea. Or at least redefine winning. The drive to get better is still perfectly helpful. As is the desire to make good decisions as often as possible. But as long as we continue to suffer from the beats, individually or as part of a bad run, we handicap ourselves in a game in which small edges are all that separate consistent winners from marginal losers.

I've said it before, but for me this all boils down to expectations. Desire in the zen sense of things. When I want to win, or expect that I should because of all the time and effort I've spent to make myself into a winning player, I get frustrated when it doesn't happen in the short term. Which makes it that much harder. I'm at my best when I let go of all my emotional baggage and truly accept that everything except the quality of my decisions is completely out of my control. I sometimes lose, I sometimes win, but when I'm playing well I float through it all with a serenity that is one of the great pleasures of my life.

This gets harder when I'm losing consistently and/or am playing in a game where I think I have a significant edge. It makes me want to win. Now. Watching your month's earnings, or your hopes of moving up sooner rather than later, or even just a run of good pokering you're justifiably proud of evaporate in a session or two can be absolutely demoralizing, even though you know it shouldn't be.

I know I'm a winner in the games I play. I've proven it over and over. But instead of allowing myself to let go, with the understanding that things happen in the fullness of time, I still all-too-often let my ego take over. And unfortunately he's ungood at teh poker.

The thing that most impresses about truly good mid-high players is how well they manage to keep their [censored] together in the face of what might otherwise be crushing adversity. They all seem to do this a little differently, but the end result is the opportunity to apply the full scope of their talent more often than their opponents, which is critical in tough games where a lot of your expectation comes from increased frequency of mistakes due to tilt. As Tommy Angelo says, "everyone takes turns tilting. Skip your turn." If only it was as easy as it sounds. Oh well. Baby steps.

Happy pokering.

[tyler_cracker]

detruncate5,

nice post, sir.

[Fantam]

I apologise for bumping this, but I just read and [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Detruncate's post.

[Smurph64]

I just got a copy of The Poker Mindset and started reading it and I must say its the perfect book to read to address this issue.

I am on chapter two and already found some fatal thinking flaws I need to correct and I haven't even got to the good part yet.

I remember when I first started posting about bankroll management building and using profits and the like to run up at the higher levels, essentially for free.

But it really isn't a good plan. Short term thinking and playing result poker.

On my third run up the pole I guess its time to start thinking long term and stop playing these little games.

Good stuff. Thanks for the input.