Free will argument

kingofmirrors · #1 05-13-2007, 11:15 PM

I was having a discussion with some religious folk the other day about whether or not free will and an all-knowing god could coexist. They argued that everyone can make their own choices, but god can see a "timeline" of all the choices you will ever make because god transcends time. I argued that if god knows what my choices are going to be I actually don't really have choices. In other words, if god sees me choosing to go to sleep in 10 minutes, I WILL choose to go to sleep in 10 minutes and I can't change that. To me, that means I'm just living out a story I've already written and therefore don't have any way of affecting my future even though superficially it appears that I do. If I'm stuck on a timeline, even one that I've written, that seems to indicate that my free will has been compromised.

The whole discussion was fairly pointless and never got resolved because the other side never really countered my argument, but I'm very aware that my argument is probably faulty and/or circular. I'd like to hear some thoughts on the issue. And sorry if the language is unclear, I'm confused just thinking about it.

vhawk01 · #2 05-14-2007, 12:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was having a discussion with some religious folk the other day about whether or not free will and an all-knowing god could coexist. They argued that everyone can make their own choices, but god can see a "timeline" of all the choices you will ever make because god transcends time. I argued that if god knows what my choices are going to be I actually don't really have choices. In other words, if god sees me choosing to go to sleep in 10 minutes, I WILL choose to go to sleep in 10 minutes and I can't change that. To me, that means I'm just living out a story I've already written and therefore don't have any way of affecting my future even though superficially it appears that I do. If I'm stuck on a timeline, even one that I've written, that seems to indicate that my free will has been compromised.

The whole discussion was fairly pointless and never got resolved because the other side never really countered my argument, but I'm very aware that my argument is probably faulty and/or circular. I'd like to hear some thoughts on the issue. And sorry if the language is unclear, I'm confused just thinking about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I predict you will find this argument extremely convincing for a while, people will argue against it strongly, you will have a hard time seeing their point, but after a lot of this, you will come to realize this isn't a very good argument against God, OR against free will.

kingofmirrors · #3 05-14-2007, 12:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I predict you will find this argument extremely convincing for a while, people will argue against it strongly, you will have a hard time seeing their point, but after a lot of this, you will come to realize this isn't a very good argument against God, OR against free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

would you care to indulge me then and argue against it? i'm actually looking to hear the other side, as the people i referenced in the post merely kept pointing out that god wasn't in my head telling me what to do (a point that wasn't in contention). to me it just doesn't add up, and that's why i bothered posting it.

bunny · #4 05-14-2007, 12:26 AM

I think God exists outside of time - you seem to be considering that he knows what you will choose before you make the choice. Strictly I think this is a misconception - it's not that he knows what you will choose before it happens. It's that words like "now", "past" and "future" just dont apply. All times are equally accessible to God. So he sees the future, the past and the present all as "the same".

It may be helpful to consider decisions made by others in the past. Even though you have complete knowledge of their decision now, nonetheless they made a completely free choice back then.

Similarly, I think that knowing what to us is the future is no different from God's perspective as what to us is in the past. There's no paradox knowing what someone chose yesterday, similarly there's know paradox in knowing what someone chose tomorrow. The paradox arises only if you know the decision before it is made (which requires existing in time, which God is purported not to).

My answer is probably more confused than your question, but it's the best I've ever been able to do. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

jman3232 · #5 05-14-2007, 12:27 AM

you make your decisions on a certain criteria. Your morals, your whatever you believe in. God knows this and therefore is able to know what choices you will make.

im not saying i believe in that its just a thought

PairTheBoard · #6 05-14-2007, 12:33 AM

You'll find a lot of discussion on essentially this question in this recent thread.

Free Will and Sinners Thread

PairTheBoard

kingofmirrors · #7 05-14-2007, 12:41 AM

i'll admit the title of that thread was what sparked my memory of this conversation, but i didn't feel like digging through 100+ posts on the chance this was discussed there (it didn't seem directly related to the OP). now that you mention it i will take a look though, thanks.

vhawk01 · #8 05-14-2007, 01:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I predict you will find this argument extremely convincing for a while, people will argue against it strongly, you will have a hard time seeing their point, but after a lot of this, you will come to realize this isn't a very good argument against God, OR against free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

would you care to indulge me then and argue against it? i'm actually looking to hear the other side, as the people i referenced in the post merely kept pointing out that god wasn't in my head telling me what to do (a point that wasn't in contention). to me it just doesn't add up, and that's why i bothered posting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

"I know whats going to happen at the end of The Big Lebowski, but I think the Coen brothers were entirely free while they were writing it."

"Sure, but you only know it now, in retrospect, had you known it in advance, they wouldn't have been free."

"Retrospect and advance are pretty much meaningless terms to someone outside of time."

/argument

kingofmirrors · #9 05-14-2007, 02:24 AM

i guess existing outside of time is the part i'm having trouble wrapping my head around. i always imagined the idea of transcending time as just being able to see the past, present, and future all at once.

your argument would make more sense to me if i could better imagine the significance of existing outside of time... but i see what you're getting at.

NotReady · #10 05-14-2007, 02:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I'm very aware that my argument is probably faulty and/or circular.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never seen the logic of why God's knowledge of what we will do affects our free choice. You're not alone, though. In recent years there's a whole new movement in evangelicalism that denies God's omniscience just to avoid this problem. I think it's called "process theology", not sure.

However, I have an example that may help you think about it a little better.

Suppose you invent a time machine and travel back to 1963, Dallas, Texas. Suppose you enter the School Book Depository and see Lee Oswald heading for the staircase. You could now prevent the assassination, but instead you decide to watch. Oswald pulls the trigger, you hop in the time machine and come back. Did Oswald have free will?

There's a difference between inevitability and necessity. Had you read your Calvin you would understand.