NL25 overpair vs minraise

patoof · #1 10-30-2007, 11:11 AM

I have no stats on vilain.
Did i play well ?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $15.35
BTN: $24.10
Hero (SB): $24.25
BB: $36.35
UTG: $11.25

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, BTN raises to $1, Hero raises to $3.50, 3 folds, BTN calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $5, BTN raises to $10, Hero raises to $20.75 and is All-In, BTN calls $10.60 and is All-In

Turn: ($48.95) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($48.95) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $48.95 Pot ($2 Rake)

Profish2285 · #2 10-30-2007, 11:14 AM

Standard.

patoof · #3 10-30-2007, 11:18 AM

Ok it was i think. Thx for the confirmation.

Jouster777 · #4 10-30-2007, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hope he had JJ instead of TT

kindergartencop · #5 10-30-2007, 11:36 AM

raise more pf, bet about pot on flop. other than that little bit its all good.

kurto · #6 10-30-2007, 11:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I always wonder. How many bb is an unimproved pair worth?

Is it worth exercising pot control? Considering its a reraised pot - when the money goes all in, what percentage of the time against your 'average' player are we good here?

I'm not saying this is wrong or right - but at some point I think a value has to be put on a one pair hand. Here, we've guaranteed that we win or lose 100 BB with one pair against someone we know nothing about.

Should that be standard?

Profish2285 · #7 10-30-2007, 11:49 AM

Its standard for the reasons you already know. Villain can show up here with draws and overpairs quite often. Of course we dont know this guy specifically so we dont know what HE can show up with, but thats why we call them unknowns. We then establish what a general unknown will do, and most will show up with a range we are quite ahead of.

kurto · #8 10-30-2007, 12:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Its standard for the reasons you already know. Villain can show up here with draws and overpairs quite often. Of course we dont know this guy specifically so we dont know what HE can show up with, but thats why we call them unknowns. We then establish what a general unknown will do, and most will show up with a range we are quite ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm. Not sure I agree. Obviously "most unknowns" is kind of broad... but I would say there are more TAGS and PASSIVE players then maniacs/LAGs. Most players do not put in their whole stack with overcards or unimproved small-midpairs.

I agree that a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] would be in villains range but, if so, we are possibly flipping.

I'm actually undecided about this hand. But I do think enough thought isn't put into how much one pair is worth. I don't see anyone actually thinking about what an average player gets his stack in here.

I suspect the average player isn't very good. And yet, I bet the average player is more cautious then people are giving him credit for. (I have to datamine to find tables with lots of loose aggressive players - I would say your average table is more to be filled with TAGS and SLAGS and Loose passives.)

again - my point is that I don't think most players are getting in their whole stack here as weakly as people seem to indicate. Some players, sure... but I would generalize the average player as being more risk averse then we like to think. In which case always getting in an over pair for a full stack on most flops against your 'average' player is not so clear.

Jouster777 · #9 10-30-2007, 01:02 PM

I put him on 22/55/88-QQ and combo draws

Given the dead money its an easy push against the combo draws. The remainder of his range is strongly in our favor and he is not likely to get away from the portion we beat...making it a pretty standard play. Can't see folding or calling here.

JoseRijo · #10 10-30-2007, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it worth exercising pot control? Considering its a reraised pot - when the money goes all in, what percentage of the time against your 'average' player are we good here?

I'm not saying this is wrong or right - but at some point I think a value has to be put on a one pair hand. Here, we've guaranteed that we win or lose 100 BB with one pair against someone we know nothing about.

[/ QUOTE ]
But where are you going to fold? After the flop min-raise? I don't see how else the hand can play out.