Common Critical Situation on Flop: To raise or not to raise TPTK?

[Matt Flynn]

Example hand: You hold AQ on a Q85 rainbow board, 10-handed, four players in pot, one check, next bets 100 into a 120 pot, one folds, you have the button. You have 3K behind and are covered by all opponents.

1. Assume you are not committed. Do you raise or not?

2. If you call, would you also call with QJ?

3. If you raise, what is your plan of action?

4. If you raise, get called, the turn goes check-check, and opponent pots the river, what do you do? What if opponent 2x's the pot?

[twoakers]

I'd like to know what the betting was pre-flop, but I'll toss out my opinion on the remaining play without that info.

If I hold A-Q I definitely raise. You're heads up, and the guy made a pot sized bet (almost), meaning to me that he probably doesn't want to see anymore cards (possibly Qx).

As long as the turn is anything but a King, I raise his bet, as long as his bet is less than pot sized. If he again bets the pot, I call. If he pushes...I probably don't go along, as Q-8 is a relatively common hand and that would trump my Q's.

In scenario #4 where opponent pots the river after checks, I call or maybe even push. If he 2x's, I gotta pause and probably bail out.

With QJ I'd call after the flop, but wouldn't play nearly as aggressively as I did with A-Q.

But, I suck, so don't listen to me.

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
Example hand: You hold AQ on a Q85 rainbow board, 10-handed, four players in pot, one check, next bets 100 into a 120 pot, one folds, you have the button. You have 3K behind and are covered by all opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
need to know preflop action. did everyone, including hero, limp in? did hero raise and get called in 3 spots? did hero call a raise? your questions can't properly be answered without that info.

[lapoker17]

in a vacuum, i don't raise w tptk very often on the flop*.

*unless the guy leading into me is asian.

[Sunny Mehta]

good questions Matt, this is a common hand in games I play so I'll give a few thoughts.....I see a lot of players take the following line on the button with AQ (and often times QJ as well): they raise kind of small-ish on the flop, then depending on what card comes on the turn they either bet small-ish again or they check behind and then either call a bet on the river or often fold to a bigger river bet.....I personally don't like this line - I don't know why, I feel like it's weak/sub-optimal.....

I almost always flat-call the flop in this spot on the button with $3k behind - the only time I'll raise is if I'm playing a total fish and I am commited and I'm raising for value to aim for his stack.....generally by flat-calling it gives me many more options on the turn.....if the bettor is weak, he'll often check the turn and whether or not he calls my turn bet (which I'll make with AQ, may or may not with QJ - but if I check the turn with QJ I'm definitely calling/betting almost any river), I know I have the best hand and the pot is mine....

but often the bettor will bet into me again - either because he has a very strong hand, or because he thinks I have a draw (because I played it like a draw and often will play a draw like that).....here's where I make my decision....with AQ and QJ, I may do one of all three things: fold if I think he has a better hand, call if I think he's the goofy type who'll bet/call a worse hand again on the river (not real likely line for me with QJ in this particular spot because there's not too many worse hands than QJ)....but very often I'll raise here in position on the turn (with both AQ/QJ): it allows me to take control of the hand, it puts immense pressure on my opponent and often folds out better hands, it gives no free cards to hands that are drawing fairly live, it acts as a value/blocking bet that allows me to check-check the river to showdown if I want, it often gives me a "free" chance to catch up on the river if I was behind, and if I get reraised I am 100% behind (and often drawing dead) and is an easy fold.....

I think the latter is a line that is inherent to live play because of how deep the money is and is foreign to many online players.....I've seen many good online players come into my games and play hands suboptimally on the flop and turn because they are not used to the difference in commitment points that occur when the money is significantly deeper.....

[Chaostracize]

Yeah. I like the call down approach and fold given specific reads. Very Angelo-esque but I don't like anything else too much more than this (unless you're up against specific opponents who can't tell when you're value betting and you don't have to worry about being played back at with an inferior hand, against these players I like calling the flop and betting the turn, maybe 3/4 pot if checked to, then 1/2 pot on river, this is all very general, of course).

[KaneKungFu123]

really isnt any reason to raise here.

[g-p]

old limon thread that might be helpful:

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/show...rt=all&vc=1

[Kirkrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
in a vacuum, i don't raise w tptk very often on the flop*.

*unless the guy leading into me is asian.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO. Spoken like someone who plays a LOT at Commerce [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Example hand: You hold AQ on a Q85 rainbow board, 10-handed, four players in pot, one check, next bets 100 into a 120 pot, one folds, you have the button. You have 3K behind and are covered by all opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would hugely depend on table dynamics but since you provided none, I'm assuming "just sat down - no reads" scenario.

1) Raise flop.
2) Check behind turn/possibly half-pot turn.
3) Call pot-sized bet on river. Value bet if checked to. Think long and hard about calling 2xPot bet, but probably fold.

With a worse kicker - QJ, QT, etc - I'd be more inclined to call and try to keep the pot smaller.

Kirk

PS: Edited to consolidate two posts into one.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

1. Assume you are not committed. Do you raise or not?


[/ QUOTE ]

usually no, raising may inspire the bettor to make a good fold.

[ QUOTE ]

2. If you call, would you also call with QJ?


[/ QUOTE ]

this is a tougher question, assuming no reads I probably call. if turn is checked to me I bet it and probably check river.

[ QUOTE ]

3. If you raise, what is your plan of action?


[/ QUOTE ]

if I have reason to raise, my plan is to value bet the turn and river.

[ QUOTE ]

4. If you raise, get called, the turn goes check-check, and opponent pots the river, what do you do? What if opponent 2x's the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

call a pot bet on the river, probably fold to 2x pot.