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Old 09-17-2007, 02:49 PM
Lottery Larry Lottery Larry is offline
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Default Who makes more mistakes- short stack or big profit stack?

A debate that emerged in this home game thread brought up something I want to ask HP:

In your experience, in home games, who makes more mistakes (or maybe more importantly, more EXPENSIVE mistakes) in a big-bet cash game? Pot-limit or NL, no tourneys considered.

1) The short stack players who have been chopped down
2) Short stacks who have rebought for the cap but are well under the average stack
3) Big stack winners
4) Big stack add-on/rebuy players?

Note that big-bet doesn't mean big blinds. I'm talking PL/NL instead of limit cash games, where most players have started from in their poker "careers".
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2007, 02:54 PM
Lottery Larry Lottery Larry is offline
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Default Re: Who makes more mistakes- short stack or big profit stack?

In my limited experience, this is a two part answer:

A) Experienced players who know how to play big-bet poker generally make small stack mistakes... and can sometimes be hyperaggressive with bullying, but fold equity may not make this a big mistake.

B) Inexperienced players who win a fair amount early by being loose can often blow through large stacks by continuing to be too LAG.

I think short stacks are somewhat protected from their mistakes, by the cap on their losses that comes with a short stack. Odds are, those players who buy in light who are not VERY experienced with big-bet poker will make MUCH more expensive mistakes with a big stack.

The shortened odds let their small stack mistakes become less "damaging" than they would be, if their stack was larger.

Counterpoints?
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  #3  
Old 09-17-2007, 05:07 PM
dnord dnord is offline
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Default Re: Who makes more mistakes- short stack or big profit stack?

This debate wasn't super productive in that thread, and I don't have high hopes for it here, but...

Most home-game players don't know/care about the adjustments they ought to be making when their stack size moves relative to the blinds. (This is especially true in tournaments, since the blinds are periodically increasing, but you specifically excluded this.)

What are the mistakes a short stack can make? They can play speculative hands when their stack limits their implied odds. This is a pretty big leak.

They can sacrifice pot equity when they fold draws (if a deep stack bets $500 into a $500 pot, and the short stack has only $50 behind). This isn't a huge mistake, and my guess is that it doesn't happen as often as the first example.

They might possibly make bets relative to their own stacks, and not the pot, if they are afraid of getting all-in and losing.

Deep stacks should play exactly the same as the "effective" stack, but I guess the thread over there cleared up the fact that most home game players (even smart ones from 2p2) have no concept of this. They can make the same mistakes: playing speculative hands against short stack opponents who can't pay correct odds on their initial investment, making bets that seem large, but still offer excellent pot odds to a short stack opponent, and pricing opponents in by betting "half their stack" instead of giving their opponents improper odds to draw.

The only BIG mistake would be deep stacks playing other deep stacks the same way that they would play against small stacks. A three-barrel bluff might be just the thing between two 100BB stacks, but between 500BB stacks, the raising and reraising can quickly get beyond most players' online or tournament experience. Many hands worth felting against a 50BB or 100BB opponent are easy folds if you're against a 500BB opponent who wants to get all-in. Many players don't realize this.

Now you're also asking about the psychological state of someone on their third short buyin, or someone who's tripled up, and how they adjust their game. There are undoubtedly players who take risks to "get even" when they're down, and there are players who notoriously gamble every chip of the house's money in a completely different way than they would their own. I think a lot of people in that other thread were conflating the two ideas: deep stacks gamble and take risks, short stacks take shots, etc. If someone has this kind of hang-up about money ("their" money vs. "found" money vs. "won" money vs. "lost" money), it doesn't seem to make any difference what they bought in for. Not in my experience, anyway.
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  #4  
Old 09-17-2007, 05:59 PM
Zetack Zetack is offline
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Default Re: Who makes more mistakes- short stack or big profit stack?

I play in an uncapped 1/2 game that is decently loose and wild (it often, although not always, plays like a 1/2/15 game). The most expensive mistakes are undoubtedly made by the big stacks. I can't count the times I've seen somebody go up 6-800 bucks and end up felted.

Of course I've seen planty of players go down 6-800 bucks 200 dollars at a time as well. But it seems clear to me that already loose players get even looser and wilder when they're up big. In a game where they rarely have a huge multiple of everybody at the table, because some people inevitably buy in for 200 BB's or more, that's usually a hugely expensive mistake, unless the deck just never stops hitting them in the face.

--Zetack
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  #5  
Old 09-17-2007, 06:46 PM
Small Fry Small Fry is offline
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Default Re: Who makes more mistakes- short stack or big profit stack?

Didn't read the other responses so I hope I don't repeat to much of what's already been said.

I don't think it matters if it's big bet or small bet (maybe I misunderstand the term though). It's all about odds, pot and implied. It then matters if a player or players know how to adjust their play for the appropriate stack sizes around them.

So I guess I look at your question as more of: Who makes the most mistakes? And I'd say it's usually the guy who gets up early. Typically, imo, the reason for this is he starts to loosen up and plays marginal hands he doesn't normally play. This causes him some difficult decisions, which he's not used to making, leading to more mistakes. Generally he ends up leaking a lot of chips back.

But it could be anyone at anytime for a number of reasons. Tilt, stuck, tired, drunk, bored or even just a bad run all come to mind.

There was a lot of information just plain wrong in that other thread.

Short stacks (where a player has about 20%-40% of the stack size of the players around him. Ex. I have $200 and everyone else has $500-$1,000 in a 1/2 game) have an inherent advantage. As the big stacks all adjust to play against each other they will play incorrectly against the SS. Assuming the SS knows how to play a SS. And the big stacks are playing correctly against each other too.

I think the biggest problem with the SS, if played correctly, is that it's going to be boring. It's basically push / fold and your decision is either made preflop or on the flop. Thats all there is to it. Thats not why a lot of players play poker, especially home poker. They come to play. They come for the suck outs and bad beats...lol
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  #6  
Old 09-17-2007, 06:49 PM
pfapfap pfapfap is offline
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Default Re: Who makes more mistakes- short stack or big profit stack?

Interesting question, not sure about it at my games. I can think of players that make all sorts of mistakes at all levels. Unless I put in lipstick cams and review everything, I don't think I can really answer it. At the end of the night we have fewer big stacks than shorties or bustos, which implies shorties make more mistakes. But maybe the big stacks have made plenty of small mistaks.

I know for myself that I rarely lose a big stack once I get it. My chip stack is a black hole, a singularity of poker. However, I make a lot of mistakes on the road to getting it, generally viewing my first buyin as just warmin' up monies.

But I can certainly think of times I've tilted off a few short buys, and times I've gotten over-confident and donked off my big stack. I try not to repeat mistakes, but I can't speak for others in my game. There are so many variables here for every person, I don't know if this question really has an answer.

Overall, I think the big stacks in home games give better players a definite advantage. Short stacks become quickly committed with high variance hands, whereas large stacks can play more speculatively. I'm not talking game theory, I'm talking real-world application. Bad players will lose their chips, regardless of stack size.
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  #7  
Old 09-17-2007, 07:48 PM
Rottersod Rottersod is offline
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Default Re: Who makes more mistakes- short stack or big profit stack?

At my local card rooms I see more mistakes by big stacks who have accumulated their chips fast. They usually play fast and loose with their new money and can get into wild swings in a short period of time.

At my home games I also see the same thing but I see more mistakes by short stacks too because there is no drop and in my good games the lineup rarely changes after we get seated so more money accumulates on the table. Short stacks get frustrated by constantly rebuying and then they make plays they have no business making and get picked off by a big stack who is willing to stay in with less than optimum hands because they know how tilty SS is playing.

The other week I was playing at my 5/5 NL with $2500k behind and I didn't even cover all players. One guy was into his 8th or 9th rebuy and had $320 and I called his PF large raise OOP because I know how to play him OOP. I hit bottom pair, high kicker on the flop, checked/called. check called blank turn with the intent on pushing almost any river when I hit top 2 and still pushed to his insta-call. He had the same bottom pair as me with a middle kicker (pretty much the kind of hand I expected). I don't play this hand against the other big stacks.
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2007, 07:58 PM
pfapfap pfapfap is offline
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Default Re: Who makes more mistakes- short stack or big profit stack?

Rottersod is magic! Bottom pair becomes top 2... I don't think I want you at my game.
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  #9  
Old 09-17-2007, 09:52 PM
rchandra rchandra is offline
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Default Re: Who makes more mistakes- short stack or big profit stack?

[ QUOTE ]
Rottersod is magic! Bottom pair becomes top 2... I don't think I want you at my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

3342K board (K4 vs 84) sort of works for that description.
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  #10  
Old 09-17-2007, 09:56 PM
Lottery Larry Lottery Larry is offline
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Default Re: Who makes more mistakes- short stack or big profit stack?

[ QUOTE ]
3342K board (K4 vs 84) sort of works for that description.

[/ QUOTE ]

mmmmmm, no it doesn't. That isn't a bottom pair flop.

" I hit bottom pair, high kicker on the flop, checked/called. check called blank turn with the intent on pushing almost any river when I hit top 2 and still pushed to his insta-call. He had the same bottom pair as me with a middle kicker"

I think "top 2" meant Rott was planning on pushing if he hit the top two, but pushed anyway when it didn't come.

Only thing I can think of that would fit would be something like A5 on a 567J7 board against 87, but that doesn't make top 2 either.

Rott, what the HELL are you smokin'?
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