PNL Study Group Day 5: Pot Control

[Dismas]

[ QUOTE ]
Pot control gets to the heart of planning hands. What pot size will work best for your hand? How can you make the pot that size?

For example, when should you try to keep the pot small, even if you likely have the best hand?

Answer: when the next bet threatens an all-in, and your hand may be best against opponents current range but not against his all-in range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn’t you’re answer also include the likelihood of you folding the best hand? The smaller the pot the less of a disaster of folding the best hand would be… So in essence the harder the hand is to play the smaller you should try and keep the pot.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
On page 68 there is a discussion of betting less when the board is uncoordinated in order to exercice pot control. Just so I am clear, this applies when you have a decent but potentially vulnerable hand like top pair and not when you miss and are c-betting, correct? In other words, you can sort of put the "must control pot" concern out of your mind when c betting a missed flop because you'll check/fold the rest of the hand anyway assuming villains call, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes you are right. when you miss and are cbetting pot control is not the issue, although if you think you might fire twice consider how big you want the pot to be when you fire the second barrel.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
I have 2 things I'd like to discuss from this chapter:

1. On page 72, you talk about the trickiest exception of all, the balance between small pot control and punishing draws. You mention several things to consider after considering your opponents and your hand. The 3 you mention are:

1. Stack sizes
2. Pot size
3. Recent game flow.

I'm wondering if you could provide an example for each (however, I'm mostly interested in #3 - recent game flow)

[/ QUOTE ]

1. SPR=1. Pot is no longer small and so keeping it small is irrelevant.

1. SPR=16. Now you have room to make a bet without getting into commitment range and so would be more inclined to bet.

2. See examples for #1.

3. You have been raising and taking down many pots recently. Players are getting sick of you. You should be less inclined to bet a modest hand b/c it is more likely someone will play back at you (with a draw or a made hand) and force you to fold. Of course, if you think they'll pay you off or play back at you with a lot of hands weaker than yours, then you should bet. Give 'em some rope and let them hang themselves.

[Vedocorban]

Here are two examples where I tried putting pot control into practice, but I'm not sure if my timing was appropriate. Should I have been trying to protect my hand? This is definitely a tricky balancing act.

1) http://www.pokerhand.org/?1406569 Villain is loose preflop and postflop.

2) http://www.pokerhand.org/?1406596 Villain is loose in this hand, too. The HH didn't convert well, but I checked the turn and the final board is actually 35T,Q,4 (not 545,Q,4)

I'm not trying to turn this into a hand critique thread, but the pot control section of the book was fresh in my mind when I played both these hands. I'm naturally a very aggressive player, and would often bet these turns in the past. However, I just recently crossed over from MTTs, and I'm working hard to keep the value of TP/Overpairs in perspective when playing 100 BB deep.

Love to hear anyone's thoughts on when to protect your hand, and when to control the pot size.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pot control gets to the heart of planning hands. What pot size will work best for your hand? How can you make the pot that size?

For example, when should you try to keep the pot small, even if you likely have the best hand?

Answer: when the next bet threatens an all-in, and your hand may be best against opponents current range but not against his all-in range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn’t you’re answer also include the likelihood of you folding the best hand? The smaller the pot the less of a disaster of folding the best hand would be… So in essence the harder the hand is to play the smaller you should try and keep the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]


yes, likelihood of folding the best hand is very important.

the harder the hand is, though, sometimes you can make it easier by making a big bet or two.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]

2. I'm also interested in the topic of taking advantage of the pot control turn check and the defense against it. I had the following hand the other day that got me thinking about it.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($133)
Hero ($105.30)
Button ($77.85)
SB ($204.60)
BB ($243.15)
UTG ($47)
UTG+1 ($136.35)
MP1 ($35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, SB calls $6, 1 fold.

Flop: ($16) K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $10, Hero calls $10.

Turn: ($36) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($36) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $187.6 (All-In)

Even tho this is a massive bet, the concept is there, and I thought what a powerful move this is.

[/ QUOTE ]


you'll see many high-stakes players doing just this. it's all math. if he has the best hand and you call, it's a disaster for you. if he is bluffing, folding is a disaster. you won't call that bet often. what could you have to call with other than 86? maybe a random hand here and there but c'mon. his bet is expected to succeed so often that the only bound on his making that play is you adjusting to it. then after a few of those you will likely overadjust and call the next one with one pair. that time he'll have the goods. Prahlad (Mahatma/Spirit Rock) used to do that all the time and was good at figuring out when it would take one or two pushes before you'd steel yourself for a big call. or at least he was good at it hu and shorthanded. longhanded he way overdid it for a while - i just waited for sets and checked/called all the way.

in microstakes opponents tend to either always have it there (or almost) or go way overboard using it and get clipped. so there's plenty of room to execute this strategy well. better be bankrolled for it though.

matt

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2. I'm also interested in the topic of taking advantage of the pot control turn check and the defense against it. I had the following hand the other day that got me thinking about it.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($133)
Hero ($105.30)
Button ($77.85)
SB ($204.60)
BB ($243.15)
UTG ($47)
UTG+1 ($136.35)
MP1 ($35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, SB calls $6, 1 fold.

Flop: ($16) K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $10, Hero calls $10.

Turn: ($36) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($36) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $187.6 (All-In)

Even tho this is a massive bet, the concept is there, and I thought what a powerful move this is.

[/ QUOTE ]


you'll see many high-stakes players doing just this. it's all math. if he has the best hand and you call, it's a disaster for you. if he is bluffing, folding is a disaster. you won't call that bet often. what could you have to call with other than 86? maybe a random hand here and there but c'mon. his bet is expected to succeed so often that the only bound on his making that play is you adjusting to it. then after a few of those you will likely overadjust and call the next one with one pair. that time he'll have the goods. Prahlad (Mahatma/Spirit Rock) used to do that all the time and was good at figuring out when it would take one or two pushes before you'd steel yourself for a big call. or at least he was good at it hu and shorthanded. longhanded he way overdid it for a while - i just waited for sets and checked/called all the way.

in microstakes opponents tend to either always have it there (or almost) or go way overboard using it and get clipped. so there's plenty of room to execute this strategy well. better be bankrolled for it though.

matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your response on both of my questions. Good things to think about.

Thx.

[QTip]

One more thing I wanted to just bring up here and perhaps jog some thoughts is pot control when oop. Sometimes it seems to me that when oop the best way to control the pot is to simply bet small as opposed to checking (unless you're against an opponent who is very passive and likes checking or betting small). However, these small bets look so weak and they just cry for someone to raise them. I guess the only way to get around this is to sometimes bet small with your big hands waiting to punish a raise (at least against observant opponents).

Anyway, I'm just trying to think of ways to excute pot control when oop and it's obvious that oop sucks for so many reasons.

[inverted]

QTip I agree with you at low stakes OOP, people seem to be passive and not raise terribly often. But as to your other post I have seen the massive overbet on the river and sometimes even the turn alot this week.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($3.96)
Hero ($6.61)
MP ($5)
CO ($6.76)
Button ($4.76)
SB ($6.09)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $0.04.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.14</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.14, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($0.38) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.26</font>, CO calls $0.26.

Turn: ($0.90) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.6</font>, CO calls $0.60.

River: ($2.10) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO calls $6.76 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $8.86

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
CO doesn't show.
Outcome: CO wins $8.86. </font>

I've been trying to work out what to do about this/or how to use it in my game.

[Sunny Mehta]

hey guys, we'll take the weekend off and start "Day 6" on Monday....