How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more ?s)

[pete fabrizio]

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tpf,

If you finish near the top of your class, you'll be able to get a very good job. Maybe not (but possibly) a job at a top firm paying 160k or whatever they pay to new grads, but you'll be able to get a good job and if you do well at that, be able to get a better job.

No idea what the outlook is like for grads from lower/mid schools who don't do that well in school.

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If you go to one of the mediocre law schools in new york like Fordham, Cardozo, Brooklyn College of Law, and are near the top of your class, you'll have no problem at all getting a standard $160k starting job. I worked at one of those biglaw firms last summer and the summer associate class was full of idiots from those schools. Also a 3.3 gpa with a very good LSAT wouldn't necessarily be fatal at NYU, which would virtually guarantee you one of those gigs. Outside New York is a different story, and you're pretty screwed if you don't go to a top law school. Even people from like UVA have difficulty finding good jobs sometimes (although obv the top of their class does fine).

[gusmahler]

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They're less important than you might think. The law firm you are currently at is often the biggest factor, plus if you've developed expertise in an unusual area they need. When my wife switched at the 4 year point, grades were never mentioned, but the fact she had worked in a contract position (non-partnership track) for one of the top law firms in the region was all important. That and her specialty area. She interviews very well too. Grades and school may only come into it in a close situation. I've never heard her say any lateral they were considering was dependent on school or grades. Prior big firm experience is usually the big factor.

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It depends on your year. After 5th year or so, no one even asks about grades. But I know a 3rd year who's trying to lateral and she's being rejected from some firms because of grades.

[NajdorfDefense]

80 hours a week would be a slow week.

[MrMon]

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They're less important than you might think. The law firm you are currently at is often the biggest factor, plus if you've developed expertise in an unusual area they need. When my wife switched at the 4 year point, grades were never mentioned, but the fact she had worked in a contract position (non-partnership track) for one of the top law firms in the region was all important. That and her specialty area. She interviews very well too. Grades and school may only come into it in a close situation. I've never heard her say any lateral they were considering was dependent on school or grades. Prior big firm experience is usually the big factor.

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It depends on your year. After 5th year or so, no one even asks about grades. But I know a 3rd year who's trying to lateral and she's being rejected from some firms because of grades.

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Grades can often be an excuse for other, less PC reasons. Like they checked around her current firm doesn't like her. Actually saying that can get you a libel suit, blaming it on grades is bulletproof. Then there are the usual illegal excuses like sex, weight, age, pregnancy, etc. Again, grades are bulletproof.

Any firm that looks at your grades after you doing three years of real work is probably not a firm you want to work at anyway.

[XXXNoahXXX]

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Also a 3.3 gpa with a very good LSAT wouldn't necessarily be fatal at NYU

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IMO it pretty much is fatal (unless you mean like 178+ on LSAT.

With a 3.3 he should focus on killing the LSAT and heading to a good school (BC, Fordham, etc.) Even there it won't be too easy, even with great LSAT.

go to lawschoolnumbers.com....its a site where applicants put in tons of info about their gpa, lsat, etc. and then the results of the application process.


you can put in a bunch of filters to figure out what you need to get on LSAT for a shot at these schools.


Also, check out LSAC's website for another measure.


(WARNING: Don't be encouraged when you see last year 12 people with 3.3 and 170 got into Harvard or something. They are minorities. SO unless you are a minority or know Bush personally, don't plan on getting in.)


EDIT: For NYU, from 05-06 cycle for people with 3.25-3.35 GPA, it says 5 accepted and 28 rejected/waitlisted. Of the 5 accepted, only two specify race and both are minorities. Of those rejected or waitlisted, there are LSAT scores of 179, 174, etc.

I'm not saying don't apply, but don't expect too much.

[thatpfunk]

the best schools i would probably ever apply to are USD (my under grad) or something Bay Area based. my intial thoughts were just something cheap(er) and easy to get into- Thomas Jefferson (in SD) or National. these were just my initial thoughts.

leaving the west coast is just not happening.

[Claunchy]

Whether or not it's worth it for you to go to a lower-level law school really depends on what your goals are. If you want to work at a big firm making 6 figures, like everyone said, it will be an uphill climb. If you're super money-driven, there are probably better ways to go.

I go to a tiny not-well-known law school in Texas. I am near the top of my class, and plan on staying there. I don't really care about money that much though, and will probably work towards being a prosecutor for the state just because it's something I think I would enjoy doing.

[pete fabrizio]

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Also a 3.3 gpa with a very good LSAT wouldn't necessarily be fatal at NYU

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO it pretty much is fatal (unless you mean like 178+ on LSAT.

With a 3.3 he should focus on killing the LSAT and heading to a good school (BC, Fordham, etc.) Even there it won't be too easy, even with great LSAT.

go to lawschoolnumbers.com....its a site where applicants put in tons of info about their gpa, lsat, etc. and then the results of the application process.


you can put in a bunch of filters to figure out what you need to get on LSAT for a shot at these schools.


Also, check out LSAC's website for another measure.


(WARNING: Don't be encouraged when you see last year 12 people with 3.3 and 170 got into Harvard or something. They are minorities. SO unless you are a minority or know Bush personally, don't plan on getting in.)


EDIT: For NYU, from 05-06 cycle for people with 3.25-3.35 GPA, it says 5 accepted and 28 rejected/waitlisted. Of the 5 accepted, only two specify race and both are minorities. Of those rejected or waitlisted, there are LSAT scores of 179, 174, etc.

I'm not saying don't apply, but don't expect too much.

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A lot of this depends on where you went to undergrad as well. There are tons of kids from Yale with 174 LSAT's and 3.3 gpa's who get in to all but the top law schools (and if you get even higher than that on the LSAT, all kinds of crazy [censored] starts happening). But if you went to Wake Forest or something, you're pretty [censored] if you don't have a 3.9.

[SackUp]

TPF:

I graduated from USD Law last Spring so I can tell you exactly what to expect if you graduate from there and have a pretty good idea about what you would get from Cal Western and TJ as well.

Some background on my experience at USD. I graduated in top 20%, amjured a couple classes, was on law review, mock trial, moot court, and externed with a bankruptcy judge, district court judge, court of appeal, and the u.s. attorney's office. I was also a research assistant for a professor. All in all I had a pretty solid resume.

Despite my resume, it was a bitch to get interviews at the big firms. Coming from USD you basically need to be in the top 10% if you want a legitimate shot at a big firm, many the top 5%. This is obviously a generalization, but typically true. I actually did get an offer from a 500+ attorney firm in SD - but this was in large part because my mom was friends with one of the partners in the LA office who pushed hard to get me through the door.

The bottom line is that these firms are all about prestige and they care a ton about being able to say where their attorneys went to school and where they were ranked. Rightfully so too, as this profession is much to do with your clout as it does to do with your ability to work - reputation is everything.

With that said, it appears that you are much like me in that you would rather work less hours even if that means less pay. I turned down the big firm and went to a decent sized firm (50 attorneys) where I work way less hours than my counterparts at the big firms. I do make a good sized less money, but I live well and I am very happy. It is also much easier to make partner at these firms and move through the ranks to equity partner for some solid cash. Several people have been made partner within 4-5 years, 7 tops and 2 have been made equity partner in under 9 years.

So that's my story. So here's what I would say to expect going to USD (obviously some of this will change in 3-4 years when you graduate, but probably not too dramatically).

My story is much more fortunate than my fellow classmates who were ranked in the top 30% and below. I think most of my class ranked in about the top 25% or above either had a job before graduation or at least shortly after the bar. Of the remaining 70-75% of my classmates, I would estimate that less than half and maybe as low as 25% of them had jobs immediately after graduation.

And if you don't have a job after graduation it is basically a pain to get a job until you get bar results back. That means you don't even get looked at for jobs until late November. It is now March and I would say that about 35-45% of my friends not in the top 25% of my class still don't have jobs. It may even be higher. And many who do have jobs are doing crap doc review for firms and have no job security at all. Or they are working at small mom and pop shops or nonprofits not making much at all.

If you went to Cal Western or TJ then you can probably double to quadruple the difficulty for getting jobs. It is proabably actually worse as I think the BAR passage rate is like 35-40%. USD's bar passage rate is around 80%.

In short, getting a job from the middle or low tiered schools can be a bitch unless you do pretty darn well. This doesn't mean that these people won't get jobs, but it is much harder, you have to wait much longer, and you have very limited choices.

The bottom line is that the legal market is getting more and more competitive as there are more and more people becoming lawyers. I think it is a teriffic field and abosolutely loved law school and love my job, but it is not getting any easier.

USD was a great place to go to school as far as professors, fellow classmates, and location go. But it requires you to do really well if you want to have some say in where you work.

This post is super long as is, pm me if you have any questions relating the application process, getting in to the school, or any other thoughts on law school and getting jobs afterwards.

good luck!

[XXXNoahXXX]

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the best schools i would probably ever apply to are USD (my under grad) or something Bay Area based. my intial thoughts were just something cheap(er) and easy to get into- Thomas Jefferson (in SD) or National. these were just my initial thoughts.

leaving the west coast is just not happening.

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If you go to TJ or Cooley, gl getting a job.