PLO8 - Theoretical Question.

[Phil153]

This is based on someone I recently played.

You're playing heads up against a calling station. He will:

- Call any preflop raise
- Call any bet on the flop and turn with any part of the board - any pair, any flush or straight draw, or a 4th nut low draw of better.
-Never raise you except when he has the nut high.
-He will call the river with top pair or better for hi, 4th low or better for low.

What is your optimal strategy against this player? Specifically

- Starting hand range - how large should your VPIP be? Which hands?
- Flop bet range
- Turn bet range.

I'll post my thoughts later.

[Split Suit]

in my experience with these ppl (i play a little 2-4handed PLO8 when i can) i found what works best for me.

Vpip: 80ish
PFR: 50ish
hand range: anything even slightly working together. (A67T, 23QKs, 245Ts...)

why? this opponent is a calling station. he will not build a pot for us at any given time, so we must do it ourselves. his strategy is clear cut and wide open, very easy to play against. build pots with 2way draws, slam pots with marginal 2way hands (2pr, 3rd nut low ish). Also, we are generally raising with position for the hand, which is is obviously key. (if ur playin at a site like PS where blinds are backwards, id have to rethink this and probably devize a whole nother general strategy)

so raising is positon and building pots is key. also, you mentioned that villian will only call, not raise on flop and turn. even more reason to raise preflop being that we can draw for almost free if we choose to (assuming its not correct o bang away (FD+LD)).

my flop bet range is: sets (given texture), dub draws (FD+LD), top 2 with something working, basically 2 way hands, or strong enuff to the high that we can bang out
Turn betting range will b much tighter. obv so dependent on texture and pot size to give a clear cut range. but this is where u decide how cheaply you want to draw, or dont. if ur gettin a free look at the river, then obv no slammin the pot without a premium hand (even that dub draw isnt as good anymore, tho i still think we shud bet something...generally 1/3-1/2 the pot).

these opponents can b very hard to play against, esp HU. but i think with proper pot building, and pot control, it is exploitable.

(ps...was i right?)

[bbartlog]

Given the quality of his postflop play I'd be tempted to play 100% of my hands... but 80% sounds reasonable. Whether to raise preflop (much) depends on whether one or both of you can/will reload or whether you're just trying to maximize your chance of getting his stack once without busting yourself. If both of us can/will reload and are going to keep playing I'd raise preflop liberally, basically with any hand that can make the nuts (A2, any suited ace, high wraps, A34...); if I need to worry about variance or just want to maximize my chance of stacking him once then there's no point to this though.

As for flop and turn bet range... mostly agree with Split Suit, except that betting a fraction of the pot at any point here seems unjustifiable given how our opponent plays. Against different opponent we might bet small as a blocking bet or so as not to scare him off a hand where we're way ahead, but against this guy it's all about odds and ranges - either we want to bet and bet the pot or we don't and we check...

Anyway, short description is I play a loose/weak nut-fisher game against this guy. Since he's dense enough to pay off the nuts I don't need to disguise their presence by betting other, marginal hands like bottom two pair and the like.

[Kuso]

what is villain's betting range if you check to him?

if he's a true passive calling station, i'll basically wait for a hand and bet it with occassional semi-bluffs thrown-in for good measure. it's boring as hell, but it works.

also, i'll pfr with position with hands that i think have good two way values.

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]


-Never raise you except when he has the nut high.


[/ QUOTE ]This is the key part imo. I would play every hand but would limp with most hands to descrease variance. Then just bet your strong hands strongly postflop.

[Phil153]

Kuso - betting range was nearly non existent. He potted monsters only. Occassionally he 1/2 pot bet when checked to for two streets - and this was always a bluff, which you could call with top pair or better. I'm not making this up.

[ QUOTE ]
I would play every hand but would limp with most hands to descrease variance. Then just bet your strong hands strongly postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
This will win, but it's long long way from optimal play. And if he gets bored, or we have limited time to play him, we're leaving a heap of money on the table. I'm hoping someone has an answer with a mathematical/hand frequency argument to it. Split suit's was pretty good, though I disagree with some of it.

Against this particular opponent I slowly ground him down to half his stack, but it was frustrating. The few times I made big hands, not having increased the pot size on early streets cost me significant money by the river.

[Kuso]

what a dream.

i can't really give you a mathematical argument, but...

i'd pretty much play almost 100% of my hands -- maybe fold my jankiest hands occassionally for the sake of appearances. i'd usually be passive unless i had 2pr or better and/or a decent draw. i'd occassionally value raise pf with position. i'd also take some occasssional stabs at the pot on the flop with position with air. i'd value bet a wide range even if the board was paired (and i didn't have trips or better) or had a three-flush that i didn't have.

most of my experience against these kinds of players is in HU/SH LHE, so i'm kind of projecting a bit here, but...

the key thing is to be VERY patient and just constantly ask yourself "is this a value bet?". for pl games, you also need to ask if you should build the pot for later potential value bets, but it's the same idea. what you DO NOT do is try to run over the person when you have air or extremely marginal holdings -- they will eat you alive.

[Split Suit]

Phil...when u tell us ur optimal way of playin him (and no, im not being an ass here), plz let me kno what changes from my plan of action.

Im actually very interested to see how u play this kind of opponent

and i think rly only Buzz can give us the whole mathematical part of this...but i dont even kno if there is a correct mathematical way to approach it. being that folding frequency is just based on how often he folds flop and turn. and that is based on how well he is hittin. i dunno...maybe its the beer talkin, but im pretty sure it just boils down to basic game theory with a lack of numbers.