Home cash game strategy

[Chrissio]

I’m playing in a 10 player NL Holdem cash game where the typical buy in is $60 with 25c/25c blinds. One week I made a pile of money but on subsequent weeks I’ve been losing it. The table plays like no other cash game I’ve ever seen. I’m a reasonably competent player and don’t feel uncomfortable about playing the flop/turn/ river. I was wondering if you could give me some advice on starting hands vs position for the type of game I’m going to describe and where I should have each type player seated.

Pre-flop the betting seams to be pretty aggressive from the initial bettor but then about half the table calls! A typical raise in this game is 6-20x BB and you can expect sometimes the entire table to call a bet preflop just to see what happens on the flop. Post flop the betting tends to get pretty aggressive. When I play a nice hand like AKs if I raise to 4xBB and I can expect almost the entire table to call. If I raise to 12xBB I’ll still get 4+ callers. If I raise to 25xBB I may get 1 caller but then I’m seriously overplaying my hand and potenetially in a big pot with a guy that I can’t shake off with a decent flop bet when I miss the A or K. It’s almost impossible to drive people out of a pot preflop. I’ve been playing fairly tight. I play low suited connectors in good position, play big suited connectors in any position and always play pocket pairs looking for a set on the flop. The problem is that with hands like TT I can raise and will get 5 callers and when the board comes JQ4, chances are one of these fools is holding Q8o and I’m drawing to 2 outs. It seems that the only way to make money is with QQ, KK or AA and even then with 5 callers AA gets busted and besides I can’t wait all night for AA!

Essentially we normally end up with big preflop pots with multiple players where pocket pairs are uselss unless you flop a set and draws are often shut out pretty aggressively.

Every pot is raised to ~10BB so when I’m on the button with a nice drawing hand like 78s, I’m forced to drop it and end up playing few hands. If I try and kill a pot from the SB or BB with a big bet chances are several people will call and I’m left with a big pot to fight for with aggressive post flop players, out of position.

Basically these guys are all good tournament players and will happily go all in preflop or on the flop with a ‘monster’ like AQo. I find it frustrating as I end up getting driven out the pot unless I have at least top pair A kicker or better.

So here are my questions:

What type of starting hands should you play in early, middle and late position in a game where preflop bets are big with multiple callers and post flop action is definately on the aggressive side and very often multi-way? Should I play tight or loose. Aggressive or ultra aggressive?

[Rottersod]

Here's how I would play this table: I'd play it exactly the same way that everyone else is - call pre flop with just about anything and then push post flop if you hit. You'll win some and you'll lose some but it will be fun.

[crackerjack]

simply limp more with big hands and try and flop it big. Or limp/reraise preflop... for this to work though, you have to have enough on the table to make some of these guys fold

[Lottery Larry]

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The table plays like no other cash game I’ve ever seen. I’m a reasonably competent player and don’t feel uncomfortable about playing the flop/turn/ river.

Pre-flop the betting seams to be pretty aggressive from the initial bettor but then about half the table calls! A typical raise in this game is 6-20x BB and you can expect sometimes the entire table to call a bet preflop just to see what happens on the flop. Post flop the betting tends to get pretty aggressive. When I play a nice hand like AKs if I raise to 4xBB and I can expect almost the entire table to call. If I raise to 12xBB I’ll still get 4+ callers. It’s almost impossible to drive people out of a pot preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please reread this again.... and every time you still are upset by this, smack yourself in the head with a mallet.

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The problem is that with hands like TT I can raise and will get 5 callers and when the board comes JQ4, chances are one of these fools is holding Q8o and I’m drawing to 2 outs.

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So, when you get a bunch of them to put in 15x the BB preflop, with only 4-5 outs each....

"and even then with 5 callers AA gets busted"

WHAM! goes the mallet.


"Essentially we normally end up with big preflop pots with multiple players where pocket pairs are uselss unless you flop a set and draws are often shut out pretty aggressively."

That's pretty much NL, isn't it? Be more aggressive with big drawing hands and discount single pairs post-flop.

"Every pot is raised to ~10BB so when I’m on the button with a nice drawing hand like 78s, I’m forced to drop it and end up playing few hands."

You have TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTY BB! If you can expect 4-5 callers, then you could almost limp UTG, KNOWING it would get raised twice!

"If I try and kill a pot from the SB or BB with a big bet chances are several people will call and I’m left with a big pot to fight for with aggressive post flop players, out of position."

Stop playing that way out of position. Or, if you want to lower your overall returns, push in every time.

"Basically these guys are all good tournament players and will happily go all in preflop or on the flop with a ‘monster’ like AQo. I find it frustrating as I end up getting driven out the pot unless I have at least top pair A kicker or better."

WHACK-A-MOLE!


Variance is your friend over time, but it can be a cast-iron beeyatch short-term. I know, I go through this myself.

[PantsOnFire]

This is the type of game where you only need to win a few pots to show a profit because the pots are always so large by your description.

I would lay fairly loose preflop. As long as the stacks are at 200BB you can call with hands like Axs, suited connectorsl and pocket pairs. I would also put a premium on position. Then I would tighten up considerably post flop. It sounds like these are the kind of guys who are going to stick around and throw chips in the pot. If you don't hit the flop hard, then just fold and move on. If you caught a piece of the flop, then with your good position, you can perhaps stick around if you have good pot odds.

As well, this is the sort of game where I would be raising preflop (or calling a raise preflop with other callers) and then moving all-in on the flop. For example, if you had the nut flush draw, then you only need two callers to your all-in to make this the right play. On a ragged board, push in with your overpairs. Push with sets.

Forget about slowplaying or bluffing. Concentrate on getting it all-in with the best of it. This also includes preflop. When you do get your premium hand, depending on your position, make a play that will end up with all your chips in the pot.

So in general, I would suggest loose passive preflop (for speculative hands) and tight aggressive post flop. When you get a hand like 1010 or JJ preflop, there's not much point in being aggressive. You should just play these for set value.

If you want to practice these techniques, go to a NL freeroll tournament or a $1 rebuy tourney. The players in these tourneys act much the same way as you have described.

I would sum up the two keys to success here as playing position and making the best decisions on the flop whether to continue or not. Your variance will be high but you will win big pots.

[EZgo]

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When I play a nice hand like AKs if I raise to 4xBB and I can expect almost the entire table to call. If I raise to 12xBB I’ll still get 4+ callers. It’s almost impossible to drive people out of a pot preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please reread this again.... and every time you still are upset by this, smack yourself in the head with a mallet.


[/ QUOTE ]

HYSTERICAL. I'm sitting at my desk just giggling over this comment. Very nice Lottery Larry!

[RussianBear]

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WHACK-A-MOLE!

[/ QUOTE ]

Truer words have never been spoken.

[Chrissio]

PantOnFire,

I couldn't agree more with your advice. Somewhere in my head I know exactly what needs to be done and how to do it but I'm very greatfuly to you for spelling it out to me. Thanks again

And thanks to all the other guys for your advice too :-)

I'll let you know if I manage to crack it next session (these games have gone on for 19 hours before!).

[BenJammin']

whacking yourself with a mallet should do the trick

[Splossy]

I'm not even sure there is a usefully winning strategy for some home games in the short term - ie for the night. I agree with the guy who said just play like they do and try to make good decisions after the flop. I've played games with complete newbies who bluff a lot, call raises with nothing etc and aren't even really sure of what hand beats what hand. Trying to beat it properly is about as much fun as sticking needles in your eye. Far better to just get stuck in, have fun and leave it at that.

I've had advice like: play tight. Well seeing as the game only lasts for say 3 hours and we play about 30 hands (in between drinks and pizza etc) I could easily hardly play a hand that hits the flop the whole session.

All I can say is that if you find a bet amount that will actually get people to fold then use it occasionally to keep you head above water and remember it's a showdown game so betting high cards preflop isn't useful if no-one folds. Get in cheap and mix it up.