KQs EP C/R in multiway pot

MJBuddy · #1 09-10-2007, 09:52 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t635)
SB (t1128)
BB (t3725)
UTG (t4918)
Hero (t2885)
MP1 (t1465)
MP2 (t1480)
MP3 (t2775)
CO (t2599)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls t50, 2 folds, MP3 calls t50, CO calls t50, Button calls t50, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (t275) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets t150, Button folds, BB folds, Hero raises to t450, MP3 folds, CO calls t300.

Turn: (t1175) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t700, CO calls t700.

River: (t2575) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: t2575

I felt pretty sure I could push him off all but the best hands/draws on this turn. I still feel I could have, but I'm wondering if the idea/actions are spewy in general.

SuperUberBob · #2 09-10-2007, 10:40 PM

Either raise or fold preflop. Limping is bad.

I don't like c/r flop. Raise pre and fire 200 on the flop.

erc007 · #3 09-10-2007, 10:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t635)
SB (t1128)
BB (t3725)
UTG (t4918)
Hero (t2885)
MP1 (t1465)
MP2 (t1480)
MP3 (t2775)
CO (t2599)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls t50, 2 folds, MP3 calls t50, CO calls t50, Button calls t50, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (t275) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets t150, Button folds, BB folds, Hero raises to t450, MP3 folds, CO calls t300.

Turn: (t1175) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t700, CO calls t700.

River: (t2575) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: t2575

I felt pretty sure I could push him off all but the best hands/draws on this turn. I still feel I could have, but I'm wondering if the idea/actions are spewy in general.

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What hands (other than a draw) are you repping when u c/r this flop in an unraised pot? Also...if you're going to c/r, make it bigger.

MJBuddy · #4 09-10-2007, 10:55 PM

I'm not repping much more than the hand I have, which is a favorite over almost an entire range of betting here.

Also, I'm never going to bet an incredible amount here. If he calls I'm ahead going into the turn anyway, and I will be able to bet out and push him off of an even wider range of hands.

I'm trying to make him throw away a bunch of hands here, including weak kicked top pairs, mid pairs, underpairs. The range of hands I can put him on with a call is STILL a dog to me if he calls, and extracting a bunch of value when my hand hits is my goal here, not to pretend like I hit a set.

erc007 · #5 09-11-2007, 12:11 AM

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I'm not repping much more than the hand I have, which is a slight favorite over almost an entire range of betting here.

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This is only true on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm never going to bet an incredible amount here. If he calls I'm ahead going into the turn anyway, and I will be able to bet out and push him off of an even wider range of hands.

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Are u saying that you're still ahead of his range on the turn...or that u can push him off the hands that you are behind by betting again?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to make him throw away a bunch of hands here, including weak kicked top pairs, mid pairs, underpairs. The range of hands I can put him on with a call is STILL a dog to me if he calls, and extracting a bunch of value when my hand hits is my goal here, not to pretend like I hit a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like you played this hand "passive-aggressively." IMO you have to play hands like this (big draws-no showdown value) much more aggressively (raise more on the flop/shove turn) if u want to get full value. I'd rather bet/3bet flop or check/call til the river than play it psuedo-aggro like your line. I'm not sure about your logic/assumption that you can push him off better hands by repping exactly what u have? Is that what you were trying to accomplish by leading the turn? You also seem to be oblivious to the fact that your hand loses a lot of equity after the turn misses you.
I also think that it going to be really tough to 'extract a bunch of value' when you're OOP/1st to bet. Do u really think he calls with his entire range when river is a Jh and you lead out?

MJBuddy · #6 09-11-2007, 02:51 PM

Actually I think I do have a huge calling range if a Jh hits, considering it's probably the best hand I could hope for.

As for slight favorite on the flop, an edge is an edge is an edge. On the turn my bet isn't even -EV. Assuming I'm getting called 100% of the time, it's still simply building a pot. As long as he doesn't come over the top of me or I don't overbet the pot, I'm simply building a correct pot that will get payed off more times than check/calling obvious draws would.

I'm 36/64 on the turn vs a pair + Straight draw, which is the best hand in his calling range here. Two pair, a set, or a straight are never calling here. If a Jh hit, I could jam the pot and get called almost every time by straights or two pairs.

BUT I'm 1/3 to win the pot, I'm betting less than the pot creating a +EV pot to build when I have a very strong chance to show down the best hand when I hit.

So yes, I'm no longer ahead of his range on the turn, but that really doesn't matter since I can't back down on the aggression AND betting is +EV for me with this draw.

I'm actually extracting correct value + implied odds and giving him horrible reverse implied odds to call.