Do you win at 6/12 at the Bay 101?

[threeducks]

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ok, your done giving bad advice. Anyone advising cookie cutter approach to poker should be listening to the advice,


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I gave cookie-cutter advice? Did you skip the point where I said you have to know when to 3-bet AQ and when to fold it preflop? That you have to know when to 3-bet middle pair? That you have to know when to check-raise TPNK vs. betting out? I think the point of these ideas is that poker is NOT cookie-cutter.

Nowhere did I say limit hold'em is only about preflop play, would you re-read my post with 4 basic points on what it takes to beat a 6-12 game? I'm pretty sure 1/4 points are about preflop play.

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And there is nowhere that I can ever recall in that book where it advises 3-betting KQs,


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Page 83.

Geez, talk about poor advice, you're recommending the guy read HGIYLHE and Stox book. Those books are for a completely different game than the 6-12 Bay101 game. I have those books and they're great for middle limit + games, but the guy can't even beat 6-12 and doesn't know how to play SSHE-style and you're recommending him shorthanded/middle limit+ books?

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Let me jump in the middle and make a comment here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] fwiw - I have both the Stox and the HGIYLHE and the are collecting dust on my book shelf. I have perused Stox and know that it does not apply at all to the bay 101 6/12 game. The HGIYLHE is for 20/40+ so I studied that and got most of the questions correct but again it does not apply so I set it aside for later. I use WLLH by Jones', ITH by Hilger, and SSH by Miller et all as references. So, I take recommendations at they come an use what is applicable.

Captain R, I appreciate you advice here. Thanks. SSH has a very specific application against certain players in certain situations. But, it must be mastered and used appropriately. WLLH and ITH are the basic books for ABC poker. In fact, SSH says it is for players that are winning and want to win more by using expert play. The key is winning players.

I plan to study the 3 books listed more with some play mixed in. The area that I need to improve is to use the correct strategy against the right opponent. e.g. bet for value against a calling station and do not try to bluff them. Check the river against a tight player in the right circumstances. etc.

I am not sure where Sklansky's HPFAP falls into this mix or even TOP and "Getting the best of it" for that fact.

But, before I can fully use SSHE strategies I need to be a consistent winner using ABC poker. BTW. I am enjoying the 3rd re-read of the SSHE. Miller/Sklansky/malmuth are bright guys.

[pig4bill]

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Maybe a coach is the only way that I am going to get an answer. Because if I raise with, say AA, LP and do not fold regardless of the board (unless 4 flush or 4 straight) I think it was the right play to make. A coach might think it is a leak.

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I don't think you need a coach.

You really need to go back to SSHE man. The book is that good. I've played 3/6 and 100/200 at Bay101, and I still reread SSHE every ~2 months. It's that good.

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Are there really some deep dark secrets buried in there somewhere? Because it seems to me the book can be summarized in three words - "play good cards".

[threeducks]

Thanks - I used to play NL$200 but now I am strictly a limit player trying to beat 3/6 and 6/12. I do not want to play spread or no-limit at this time.

[*TT*]

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And there is nowhere that I can ever recall in that book where it advises 3-betting KQs,


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Page 83.

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your still stuck on the pre-flop chart? Its a post flop book! I thought you were quoting that from the text of the book, not the chart which Ed himself has said he would remove if he was writing the book today. Repeat after me: pre-flop errors are small, post flop errors are HUGE.

KQs vs a raise and 6-8 passive players on the flop is a re-raise all day long. You have position, they will check to the raiser, and your (in theory) smart enough to know that you don't always continuation bet the flop/get trapped with a hand that has reverse implied odds. I admit the edge is small but the reason why you play this way is the dead money in the pot filled with players who have on average 7%-11% equity make up the loss in edge vs the pre-flop raiser ( who has only 20% equity with a range of TT+,AJs+,KQs,AQo+,KQo if the other 5 players are playing a standard 35% VPiP range commonly found in these loose and passive games) if your on the button and you are likely to take control of the hand post flop. At worst a raise with KQs is a small error in inflating the pot when its multiway... but to dismiss the best book ever written for multi-way post flop play is ridiculous.

The reason why I recommend HGIYLHE is because its a book about learning how to adjust to multiple player types and table textures, and its question/answer format helps the reader formulate the reasons why a play occurs instead of reading without digesting the info. I often say its the question and answer book that Ed should have written after SSHE, in many ways HGIYLHE is SSHE The Sequel. (for what its worth there are a small amount of questionable pre-flop decisions in HGIYLHE as well but overall its a fantastic book).

[Ayodeji13]

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Thanks - I used to play NL$200 but now I am strictly a limit player trying to beat 3/6 and 6/12. I do not want to play spread or no-limit at this time.

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Cool, it's good too just focus on one game sometimes. Work out only the poker muscles you need.

I (as well as most others) recommended SSHE as a bible (notice us beating a dead horse here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ). But also, you might wanna check out hold'em for advanced players. Specificially, in that book there is a chapter about playing Loose aggresive games/players. It's written kind of differently than SSHE is written, but you can use it as a kind of warmup before you dive into SSHE.

Oh, and please play during your studies!! If you just read and don't play you'll be real uncomfortable when you finally sit back down at the felt.

Let us know if you have any other questions. Gluck

[Captain R]

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your still stuck on the pre-flop chart?

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Do you even read posts? Where did I say I was stuck on the preflop chart? I said something that I disagreed with in SSHE, you claimed it was not in the book, and then I show you where it is. I don't get how you extrapolate a simple sentence I post into something completely different.

I seriously wonder how you can be a moderator when it seems your goal is to read crap that isn't even in posts just so you have fuel to flame people on that isn't true.

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but to dismiss the best book ever written for multi-way post flop play is ridiculous.


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WTF? Is English not your native language? Read my first post again where I give some suggestions to threeducks. Here, I'll quote it for you since you seem to have a reading comprehension problem:

"you really need to re-read SSHE and ITHE about 20 more times"

Does this sound like I think SSHE sucks? Uh, is it opposite day or something at TT's house?

I still don't get where you think I think SSHE is all about preflop play, please quote me something I said, thank you very much.

You seem fixated that I'm all about preflop play and that I think SSHE sucks for postflop play. I honestly have no clue why.

Maybe READ people's posts before you spout out nonsense claiming people are saying things they aren't.

[Captain R]

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Captain R, I appreciate you advice here. Thanks. SSH has a very specific application against certain players in certain situations. But, it must be mastered and used appropriately.


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True of all powerful knowledge. That's actually why I don't recommend people read middle-limit books+, until they have the experience, because if you don't understand the full context of what/when/why an author is telling you something, it's easy to misapply it and end up playing really quite badly. There's a fine line between good play and retarded play at LHE. After all, you only have 3 options.

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But, before I can fully use SSHE strategies I need to be a consistent winner using ABC poker.

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ITHE is more ABC than SSHE, but they're both pretty basic books.

And before TT jumps down my throat claiming I said something I didn't, I'll make it clear -- Yes, I think SSHE is a great book for postflop play. Jesus-f'ing-Christ.

I do actually think the section on different types of preflop hands is also pretty valuable, and the best treatment of them I've seen in print anyway. Stuff where they talk about the different types of hands (Big pairs, big broadway cards, suited big broadway cards, small pairs, suited connectors, etc.) is really valuable for a new player, because it forms the basics of how/when you want to play those hands.

So it's a great book all around.

[threeducks]

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Captain R, I appreciate you advice here. Thanks. SSH has a very specific application against certain players in certain situations. But, it must be mastered and used appropriately.


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True of all powerful knowledge. That's actually why I don't recommend people read middle-limit books+, until they have the experience, because if you don't understand the full context of what/when/why an author is telling you something, it's easy to misapply it and end up playing really quite badly. There's a fine line between good play and retarded play at LHE. After all, you only have 3 options.

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But, before I can fully use SSHE strategies I need to be a consistent winner using ABC poker.

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ITHE is more ABC than SSHE, but they're both pretty basic books.

And before TT jumps down my throat claiming I said something I didn't, I'll make it clear -- Yes, I think SSHE is a great book for postflop play. Jesus-f'ing-Christ.

I do actually think the section on different types of preflop hands is also pretty valuable, and the best treatment of them I've seen in print anyway. Stuff where they talk about the different types of hands (Big pairs, big broadway cards, suited big broadway cards, small pairs, suited connectors, etc.) is really valuable for a new player, because it forms the basics of how/when you want to play those hands.

So it's a great book all around.

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My take on SSHE when I first read it was that the post flop play section was the best that I have read for low limit games. I still believe that. The section on Evaluation the Flop is excellent. I have few qualms with the book. I am not good enough to criticize it in any way.

Y'day I reviewed the section on Betting for Value on the River. The I remembered a hand that I had just played at 6/12 that I checked the river but I should have bet. That was a mistake straight out of SSHE pages 194-196.

Paraphrased - read the book for details.

1) if you are going to call a bet then you should bet if first to act.

2) against loose players bet your hand for value.

3) against tight player you can not bet for value so you need to check marginal hands.

I know that this is B&M and this belongs in the Small Stakes area but I would like to make a point about the book.

The button is a loose player who plays a bunch of hands. He was just called a donkey when he was UTG and cracked KK with J3s. He might have tightened up because of this.

I am BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. One limper MP, OTB limps, SB completes, I check.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 sb)

SB checks, I check, MP checks, OTB checks.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 bb)

SB checks, I bet, MP folds, OTB calls, SB folds.

River: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 bb)

[Ayodeji13]

yeah, and i would bet a J,TT,99 here too most of the time too against a loose player @ 101 6/12.

You make your money in this game because in 101 6/12 if OTB has a pocket pair <88, they're not folding. Ever.