Hand from Borgata WPT

[ZeeJustin]

The details in this hand are crucial. Please read it twice, and think about it carefully before posting.

Borgata $10,000 WPT - 30k starting stack and it's level 2 - 50/100 blinds

UTG is a typical Armenian guy in his 30's. He looks wealthy, and I don't know if he's actually Armenian, but he plays like one. That means that he likes to bluff, get tricky, and overvalues the importance of reads. He's competent and thinking, but would probably get killed in a typical online game.

The BB is a white guy in his mid 30's with a sports cap. He doesn't seem rich, and probably satellited into this event. He has had a beer or two, and has been talking about football with another player at the table. He seems like a relatively nice guy. Probably has some experience in home games and/or low stakes in the casinos, but isn't a high stakes player. He has been tight, solid, straightforward, and not tricky at all. He bluffed once vs the old lady. It was a good bluff, and everyone at the table was surprised to see him flip it over. It wasn't a huge all-in or anything crazy like that. He could use a bit more aggression in his game, but isn't terrible by any means, and is rather good compared to the typical east coast satellite player.

I have been playing looser than most at the table. People haven't been trying to play pots vs me, and most of them think I am good. I have been somewhat tight after the flop, but very aggressive, and haven't shown down many hands.

UTG limps for 100. Folds to me in the SB. I call with red 8's. The BB meekishly says raise, kind of under his voice if you know what I mean, and I make a note to myself that there's a pretty decent chance he has a huge hand here. When he throws out 500 more chips (making it 600 total), that somewhat confirms my suspicion. Armenian and I both call without thinking about it.

Flop (1800 in pot): A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I go for a check raise with my bottom set, but it checks around.

Turn (1800 in pot): T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet out 1300. The BB throws in a 5k chip and a 1k chip. After 3 seconds, he says, "Call!".

UTG and I are silent. The other players at the table debate it, and one calls over the floor. Obviously after hearing the situation, the floor says it's a raise. While the explanation process is going on, the BB says several times that he meant to call. He is very adamant about it too. He doesn't seem upset at the ruling or anything, but I guess he just wants to make it clear that he wanted to call.

The Armenian guy plays with his chips. He gets out 15k chips like he's planning on raising, stares down the BB a bit, but thinks better of it and folds. It sure seemed like he was thinking about making a big bluff, but decided against it.

Action is on me. The BB has roughly 16k behind, and I cover him by about another 16-18k. If you suggest a call, state your river line as well.

NO SHORT ANSWERS WITHOUT EXPLANATIONS PLEASE

There is a key to this hand that requires deduction from what I have written. IMHO, there is a clear answer once you figure out the key. The great Alan Sass, and the legendary Thorladen were able to deduce it. I was not. Can you?

[adanthar]

I kinda assume the Armenian guy is the "Armenian Express" dude? He's super clowny...

...and this seems like you're getting angleshot hardcore.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
I kinda assume the Armenian guy is the "Armenian Express" dude? He's super clowny...


[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not Chris Gregorian.

And dude, come on you're a mod. No short answers without explanations please!

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
And dude, come on you're a mod. No short answers without explanations please!

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah okay fine. anyway, if you think "1K + 500 -> 1K+5K" is a plausible error, that changes things a little, but I don't think the Borg's chips are similarly colored? I can't see why you're dismissing this one easily.

having said that, if that's not what you're going for, the other plausible option IMO is that, as straightforward as he is, he's simply worried you have the nuts on the turn, which doesn't help your hand at all, either.

[mikeJ]

A "tight, solid, straightforward" player raises pf from bb over an UTG limp, checks flop, moves to call, but accidentally raises, and then isn't upset about raising. Which hands from that range will check behind on a blank river?

[Mr.WeakTight]

I think he has AA KK maybe AK or TT. your read PF was a possibly huge hand. he migh also have QJs and the under the breath thing was not b/c of a huge hand but b/c he knows he shouldn't raise with QJs but he also knows he needs to show more aggression or b/c he's worried about the Armenian limp/re-raising with premium.

now I don't know what chip denominations there are available with two chips that could have made up 1300 - it would usually take a 1k and 3 100 chips - that's four chips. so it was no accident that he put in a 2 chip 6k raise. he wants you to call or raise. you are definitely behind and I would fold.

[benlj21]

I think the key to this hand is that he said so many times that he meant to call. I think it's possible that he did mean to call, but by saying so he's probably just trying to cover up his true strength. I just don't think he'd say that if he was weak, because he would fear that you would 3-bet him now. So he must welcome that 3-bet, and he must have a stronger hand than you do.

[ActionJeff]

Justin,

I think this is actually a fairly easy decision. You just can't raise here, even if he thinks you are taking advantage of his mis-bet, with his assumed range and the fact that this is a standard tight guy in a live tournament, he just isn't calling a 3-bet shove with worse. And the way this hand played out, I would be very surprised if he bets the river as a bluff or a valuebet with a worse hand than yours. I would call and check/fold on most rivers to most bets. I might have to call if he bets small on a completely harmless river, but I think that decision is even somewhat trivial and based upon your read of him. Calling and making a small (1/2 pot type) lead on a variety of rivers is also acceptable IMO, and might be preferable, but once again I don't think its a huge difference and it really depends on your read of the guy.

-Jeff

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Justin,

I think this is actually a fairly easy decision. You just can't raise here, even if he thinks you are taking advantage of his mis-bet, with his assumed range and the fact that this is a standard tight guy in a live tournament, he just isn't calling a 3-bet shove with worse. And the way this hand played out, I would be very surprised if he bets the river as a bluff or a valuebet with a worse hand than yours. I would call and check/fold on most rivers to most bets. I might have to call if he bets small on a completely harmless river, but I think that decision is even somewhat trivial and based upon your read of him. Calling and making a small (1/2 pot type) lead on a variety of rivers is also acceptable IMO, and might be preferable, but once again I don't think its a huge difference and it really depends on your read of the guy.

-Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I think this hand is interesting is not because the correct answer is hard to come by (although I should point out that you are the first to say call I think).

Let me try to think of a way to phrase this that won't give away the answer.

The key to this hand is somewhat simple, yet I told the hand to about 10 great players, and the only two that came up with the correct EXPLANATION, were Thor and Alan.

Thor is an incredibly smart guy. Arguably the best bridge player of all time.

As for Alan, I have said several times on 2+2 and my website that he is quite possibly the best live tournament player on the planet.

Once you hear the explanation, it will probably sound very simple. I suspect it will be a while before someone correctly posts it here.

[ActionJeff]

What is this DOUCY-esque junk with "the key"? Do you really expect everyone to factor in every little live read when they weren't at the table? I think getting the responses you've gotten w/some actual reasoning and suggestions for the most profitable line is quite an accomplishment in this forum. Explaining why some tell changes the correct decision or even why it is in fact the correct decision is a little more productive than this guessing game IMO. In my experience, the key in a hand is to come to a logical decision that accounts for all of the information at hand and that maximizes ones long term expectation. I think the posters responding are doing a decent job of extrapolating the correct decision which you have obviously already decided on (and wanted to post just to show everyone this?) from all of this live read "if he had a strong hand he'd have acted" mumbo jumbo.

It's certainly a good hand to post, but you know, come on. Don't go Sklansky on us!

-Jeff