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  #21  
Old 11-08-2007, 10:53 AM
wtfsvi wtfsvi is offline
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Default Re: Quick question for pro life people.

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Obviously, the only correct punishment for suicide is the death penalty. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Not really sure what people mean by 'allowed' in this sense.

[/ QUOTE ] One punishment that is used and is pretty bad is locking someone in an institution with strict superveilance and no access to anything they can use to kill themselves. I think this is very different from in the spur of the moment, wrestling the instrument out of the hand of someone who is about to committ suicide by the way. I don't blame anyone for doing that, on the contrary I would have to question if you had a normal set of emotions if you didn't do that. At least as long as you didn't peircive signifiacant danger to yourself in doing so.

Anyway, I mean if she should be "allowed" in a moral sense. So if you think she shouldn't be allowed, except it would be practically too difficult to punish anyone/systematically stop everyone from committing suicide, you still think it shouldn't be allowed.
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  #22  
Old 11-08-2007, 10:56 AM
wtfsvi wtfsvi is offline
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Default Re: Quick question for pro life people.

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The question was asked about prolife people who (generally) are pro life because they believe the fetus is a human life and the mother has no right to kill it. From their view why would the reasoning be any different from that of forbidding a mother from killing herself by driving into a lake with her child in the car with her?

[/ QUOTE ] That was what I thought too. But I asked the question because I thought they couldn't possibly think she wasn't allowed to kill herself. That was pretty retarded of me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #23  
Old 11-08-2007, 11:10 AM
tame_deuces tame_deuces is offline
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Default Re: Quick question for pro life people.


It is not really our fault you seem to suffer from the common misunderstanding that depressions aren't diseases. Suicidal thoughts (in people who seems to be physically healthy) is often a sign of depression.

We intervene in these cases in the same sense you intervene if someone has cancer. Dying from suicidal depression represents as much free will as dying from a tumor. And its a catch-22 because the while you can trust a cancer patient to take rational choices (hence accepting if he refuses treatment) you can't trust a suicidally depressed patient to take rational choices, that's how it works. If some errors have been made due to this - yes indeed there has, but the field is getting better at it.

It should also be mentioned that pregnancy can often lead to depressions, in some cases very severe ones. It has some bearing on the original question posed.
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  #24  
Old 11-08-2007, 11:17 AM
wtfsvi wtfsvi is offline
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Default Re: Quick question for pro life people.

phil:[ QUOTE ]
My justification for suicide prevention is that the vast majority of suicides, if given a clear mind or eternity to think about the choice, would not choose to kill themselves.

[/ QUOTE ] It's an easy way out. If they were given an eternity to think about it, they would have probably already taken the harder way out. No sense killing yourself when you are already out. Do you think drug addicts would take drugs if given a clear mind and an eternity to think about it? Alcoholics drink beer? Fat people eat hamburgers and candy? If no, does that mean we should take the choice away from them?

deuces:[ QUOTE ]
The majority of people who kill themselves are suffering from depression. Most depressions are simply a physical malfunction of certain chemical inhibitors and receptors in the brain and their function.

So we can agree that rationally thinking people should of course be allowed to kill themselves. But its rare that wanting to kill yourself when otherwise healthy is a rational choice. Mostly it is a sign of strong depression. So there is your catch-22.

[/ QUOTE ] Same problem here. I'm overweight and I crave sweets. It's because of certain chemical inhibitors and receptors in my brain, I don't really want to eat candy. (I do, but not by what I peircivie as your definition.) So should I be stopped?
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  #25  
Old 11-08-2007, 12:23 PM
soon2bepro soon2bepro is offline
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Default Re: Quick question for pro life people.

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I'm pro choice because I don't consider the fetus (or a lower level tard, for that matter) to be human.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed 100%


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That said, I don't think anyone should be allowed to kill themselves, with few exceptions..

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]




[ QUOTE ]

My justification for suicide prevention is that the vast majority of suicides, if given a clear mind or eternity to think about the choice, would not choose to kill themselves.
The desire for life is powerful but it can be clouded by negative emotions and mental illness.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're right to generalize like this, but even if you were right, I see no reason why you shouldn't allow them to do as they please. If they wanna listen to you, and you want to talk them out of it, fine, but imposing your righteous views on others is autoritarian and disgusting.

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I don't think anyone would have a problem from preventing a schizophrenic from cutting themselves repeatedly because they believe there are demons inside trying to get out,.

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I do. If they want to cut themselves it's their choice... What gives you the right to decide for them unless they gave you the specific command to take care of them when they can't?

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and in the same sense, people who no longer wish to live are usually confused and detached from the world. The finality of suicide gives the right to intervene, in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

The "finality"? So if I want to donate my house to charity and live in the streets, you will try to stop me too? I think you ought to revise your ethical positions. They're not consistent.
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  #26  
Old 11-08-2007, 12:26 PM
soon2bepro soon2bepro is offline
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Default Re: Quick question for pro life people.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't find trying to stop this forcefully much different from forcefully stopping a blind person from walking off a tall cliff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that the blind person probably wants you to stop them. If after you stop them and inform them that they're walking off a cliff, they still want to do it, you have no right to stop them.
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  #27  
Old 11-08-2007, 12:27 PM
tame_deuces tame_deuces is offline
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Default Re: Quick question for pro life people.


Actually the overweight thing is far more complex than that, but that is a digression.

It is a good question, but suicidal depressions can be more critical over a short term period and you would be less likely to find personal rational answers (with your overweight candy-addicted person you could ask 'do you want us to take forceful measures to try and stop this').

I don't want to criminalize suicide, but yes I think it is ok to forcefully ensure the person is at least going through with his suicide with a body that physically enables him to take a proper rational choice.

But of course it is a cultural thing. In some cultures suicide is seen as a very noble act. So when I say this I am acting on my beliefs, not an 'objective truth' of how things should be - I don't think that belief exists either for that matter.
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  #28  
Old 11-08-2007, 12:28 PM
tame_deuces tame_deuces is offline
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Default Re: Quick question for pro life people.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't find trying to stop this forcefully much different from forcefully stopping a blind person from walking off a tall cliff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that the blind person probably wants you to stop them. If after you stop them and inform them that they're walking off a cliff, they still want to do it, you have no right to stop them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well in case of the depressed patient the 'blindness' is not being able to think rationally about ending his/her life, so I don't think that criticism applies.
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  #29  
Old 11-08-2007, 05:06 PM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Quick question for pro life people.

[ QUOTE ]
Pro life is a little exotic to me, because it's not a view I ever encounter in real life.

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Its more likely that you live in a bubble than you've never encountered a pro-life view in real life. If you've truely never encountered a pro-life view, I'm sorry but I really pity you. Its time you come and join the real world.

[ QUOTE ]
Should a pregnant woman be allowed to kill herself? (If you don't think anyone should be allowed to kill themselves, pregnant or not, you are crazy, but at least specify that when you say no then. "No. But I am crazy.")

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally speaking, I don't think anyone should be allowed to kill themselves. Also I am not crazy. If someone is trying to kill themselves, societies defualt response should be to prevent them. Most people who kill themselves are not in their right minds.

Stu
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  #30  
Old 11-08-2007, 05:19 PM
wtfsvi wtfsvi is offline
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Default Re: Quick question for pro life people.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pro life is a little exotic to me, because it's not a view I ever encounter in real life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its more likely that you live in a bubble than you've never encountered a pro-life view in real life. If you've truely never encountered a pro-life view, I'm sorry but I really pity you. Its time you come and join the real world.

[/ QUOTE ] The real world = the US of A or Iran? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I don't go to either often enough [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
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