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  #11  
Old 10-24-2007, 11:20 PM
marchron marchron is offline
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Default Re: Middle pair, ass end & BDFD . . . dump it?

Huh. Maybe I'm getting weak-tight in my old age. I was seriously considering folding here simply because I wasn't in love with any of my outs: A four wrecks my hand, an eight isn't much better, threes and sixes are nice but I face pretty yucky RIO even if they help.

I changed my mind based on the attractive pot odds, but also because I had optimal relative position on the likely turn bettor. So I peeled, then of course this disaster happens:

Ultimate Bet 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) Ultimate Bet Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: marchron is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, marchron checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, marchron checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls, marchron calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, marchron checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, SB calls, marchron . . .

Ick. What do I do now, since I'm not closing the action?
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  #12  
Old 10-24-2007, 11:23 PM
Bulletproof Monk Bulletproof Monk is offline
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Default Re: Middle pair, ass end & BDFD . . . dump it?

CALLS!
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  #13  
Old 10-24-2007, 11:23 PM
Aaron W. Aaron W. is offline
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Default Re: Middle pair, ass end & BDFD . . . dump it?

Easy muck on the turn getting 4.5:1 and with more potential action.
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  #14  
Old 10-25-2007, 03:41 AM
marchron marchron is offline
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Default Re: Middle pair, ass end & BDFD . . . dump it?

[ QUOTE ]
Easy muck on the turn getting 4.5:1 and with more potential action.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Even with 9 probable outs and potentially 12? Or does the sudden turn donkraise convince you that some of our outs are dead?
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  #15  
Old 10-25-2007, 10:39 AM
JerBear77 JerBear77 is offline
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Default Re: Middle pair, ass end & BDFD . . . dump it?

Sandwiched in between people is hard to play profitably as you put more bets in when behind and you don't get enough bets in when you are ahead....I would dump here once the bet is called twice even getting 7-1. your BDFD and a 3 is really your only real clean outs here as your Reverse imps will kill you even if you make a set, 2 pairs sucks also.

Answer your questions and see what you get, that should explain why i like a flop fold.

1) C/C down, don't get crazy cause you might/might not be best.

2) thats a good one 4 U!!

3) Diamond helps you but i certainly don't want to inflate the pot as it might make someone 2 pairs.

4) Pot is probably not big enough to peel so this could be a c/f spot which would suck.
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  #16  
Old 10-25-2007, 02:47 PM
marchron marchron is offline
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Default Re: Middle pair, ass end & BDFD . . . dump it?

I should listen to Aaron more . . .


Ultimate Bet 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) Ultimate Bet Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: marchron is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, marchron checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, marchron checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls, marchron calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, marchron checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, SB calls, marchron calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls, marchron calls.

River: (16 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, marchron . . .

I'm fairly convinced now that UTG has AA/KK, and now I beat it. MP2 still worries me, but his non-cap on the turn signals to me that I may have him, too. What's my play? <font color="white">LOLOLOL I JUST BACKDOORED A PLAYALONG AND BOZ DIDN'T STOP ME HAHAHAHAHA</font>
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  #17  
Old 10-25-2007, 02:53 PM
BadBigBabar BadBigBabar is offline
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Default Re: Middle pair, ass end & BDFD . . . dump it?

i frankly would call the turn. we have tons of outs (that are cleaner than ppl are making them out to be) and decent relative position to c/r on the river if need be.

river as played, i would check and see. i think utg's limp pf and then betting the flop and then b/3b the turn is skewed much more toward a set than aa/kk.

it's sort of an interesting spot of 'how many bets do we want to go in on the river and what do those numbers mean vis-a-vis our chances for winning the pot'
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  #18  
Old 10-25-2007, 02:55 PM
Aaron W. Aaron W. is offline
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Default Re: Middle pair, ass end & BDFD . . . dump it?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy muck on the turn getting 4.5:1 and with more potential action.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Even with 9 probable outs and potentially 12? Or does the sudden turn donkraise convince you that some of our outs are dead?

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop call -&gt; turn raise is very scary on this board because it means you're probably behind a pretty big hand. The coldcall is bad because it means that some of your outs are either tainted or held by your opponent. Optimistically, I'd give you 8-10 outs here, but really I'd look at this and suggest 6-8 outs is much more reasonable.

And when it's otherwise close, call for one and fold for two.
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  #19  
Old 10-25-2007, 03:07 PM
marchron marchron is offline
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Default Re: Middle pair, ass end & BDFD . . . dump it?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy muck on the turn getting 4.5:1 and with more potential action.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Even with 9 probable outs and potentially 12? Or does the sudden turn donkraise convince you that some of our outs are dead?

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop call -&gt; turn raise is very scary on this board because it means you're probably behind a pretty big hand. The coldcall is bad because it means that some of your outs are either tainted or held by your opponent. Optimistically, I'd give you 8-10 outs here, but really I'd look at this and suggest 6-8 outs is much more reasonable.

And when it's otherwise close, call for one and fold for two.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't think my flush outs are good? I don't think anyone's donking it up with a flush draw here, though the SB playing call-a-lot is worrisome. But what diamond draw could he possibly have that would call the flop bet? 8x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and 9x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and that's about it.

I think all my flush outs are always good, which gives us an eight-out minimum. (It would be nine, but 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] could boat someone up, so I'll throw it out.) Add up all the fractions of outs from whatever else and I think 8-10 is more than reasonable.


As played, how do you handle this river?
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  #20  
Old 10-25-2007, 03:38 PM
Aaron W. Aaron W. is offline
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Default Re: Middle pair, ass end & BDFD . . . dump it?

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think my flush outs are good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Awwwww... crap. Misread the board [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
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